To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

[GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick]

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

Well I know many unvaccinated children and in all cases the decision has been made after a lot of thought and reading. HTH.

"you could give the same report to 5 different lay people and ask them to read it - do you really think they'd all think the same thing?"

As has already been discussed, medical professionals will often come to different conclusions when presented with the same information as well.

MissingMySleep, the stats are reasonably easily available. For instance, on HPV, see hpvawareness.org/en/hpv-cervical-cancer/hpv-vaccines/the-vaccines, hpvawareness.org/en/hpv-cervical-cancer/hpv-vaccines/side-effects-caused-by-vaccination, and www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6329a3.htm

You could say that about any area of life though. If someone is hit by a car crossing the road and suffers life changing head injuries, meaning they need 24 hour care, who steps in then? But does that mean nobody should ever cross a road? Or does it mean they should look carefully and rely on the pedestrian crossing as being the right place to cross, as statistically something awful could still happen, but it's far less likely?

Indeed. So statistically you could get measles if you're unvaccinated and die. However, it's more likely you may contract what is in the majority of cases a minor illness, be a little poorly and survive just fine with no after effects.

But just in case you're that awful one in a million case, we are going to inject your child with a cocktail of god knows what that 'probably' won't do any damage, but may well cause long term damage? You take the risk or you don't take the risk, your call.

Listen. If vaccines were 100% effective and 100% safe then of course no one would have any concerns.

You have to weigh up the risks yourself, based on your own medical history, previous known reactions etc.

Anyone who seriously thinks that you should just take them because the NHS tell you to and knows better than you has bigger problems than being brainwashed over vaccines imo!

Gardasil at 11? Anyone considering this really does need help!

Oh and as for google research etc and the snobbery over that. Back in the day, we used to go to the library, dig out microfiche (sp?!) and pour over passages in books. That's ok but trawling through actual medical journals on google isn't? Really don't understand that. Even my medical GP friend tells me they only did 1 week on vaccines in the whole of their training and it was literally (in her words!) anything you could google on the net that was pro vaccine!

Mega, as I said, that was intended for the OP. A particular paper on WC had been linked to.

But seriously, how many unvaccinated children do you actually know?

I would bet I know more than average (given my circumstances and the people I mix with), and it's still not that many (and as I said previously, those family all have at least one vaccinated child too, meaning they only stopped vaccinating having been given good reason to).

And now how many adults do you know who actually know their immune status? Not 'oh well I had all my vaccinations, so I'm alright' but actually know their immune status wrt mumps, or whooping cough?

Bet there's more adults unvaccinated (due to waning immunity) than unvaccinated children. By a very large number. But who's having a go at them? No one.

mimi has just shown it again - HOW DOES SHE KNOW SHE KNOWS AS MUCH AS SHE CAN WHEN THERE IS NOTHING TO ASSESS IT AGAINST?! she can't. all she can do is satisfy herself.

Assess what against? Who made the decision to vaccinate your child? You or your gp? Or the immunologist you consulted? What did you assess the information they gave you against??!! Why do I need to assess information against something in order to make a decision? I'm quite sure you didn't.

And I would far rather not be able to assess information against dd1. Like devilish, it's the one thing I would change, if I had my time again. One lesson I really wish I hadn't learned.

Can I guess, Sick, that you are married to a medical professional, or are the child of one?

The whole point avout doing your own research is that you satisfy yourself that you are doing the right thing for your child. The whole point!

Nothing useful to add except massive hugs to Devilish and Lottie.

We have had minor experience of the sort of GP attitude mentioned above. DS has HFA, so before vaccinating his younger sibs, I asked if I could talk through whether family history put them at any higher risk than average. GP said heartily, 'I could try to explain it, Mrs L, but you wouldn't understand the research.'

I told him my job. He blinked a bit and said that in that case, we probably had better access to the latest research than he did. So I asked colleagues and they agreed that they didn't know. That's the kind of answer that makes it hard to 'do your own research'.

Here's a trustworthy pediatrician.....I'm sure he knows a lot about vaccines....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-38966518

Wow mimi, that's some quality research that definitely proves a lot!!

And no. Teachers, bankers, lawyers, accountants as far as the eye can see in my family.

That wasn't research. I just read it on the BBC news!
It doesn't matter what that guy knows about vaccines....he does not have anyone's child's best interests at heart.

My point being...you can't blindly trust people to know what's right for your child. You didn't...you say you asked questions....but you are preaching that everyone else should just do as they are told by those that profess to know best simply because they have a medical qualification and the rest of us don't. They only have their medical qualification because they chose that profession. It doesn't make them infallible or saintly, and it most certainly does not make the rest of us incapable of reading the same books and literature that they did!

Right. So are we judging all doctors by this now and assuming that they all want to cause harm? If not, why bring him into the debate?!

The whole point avout doing your own research is that you satisfy yourself that you are doing the right thing for your child. The whole point!

argh, there is no chance of you ever getting the point. YOU are satisfying YOURSELF. but YOU are not an expert in the field! so, how do you know you are right? you don't. you assume you are. which your comments about understanding everything in your lease demonstrate better than anything!

so you think studying medicine or law at university and then afterwards is irrelevant, do you? because anyone can just "read the same books and literature"???

not sure if you're actually trolling here, but if you're not, that is properly scary.

I think it's perfectly possible for a well-read and intelligent parent who takes the time to research thoroughly to become sufficiently knowledgeable about individual vaccines to make an informed choice. I also think that such a parent will then know more about individual vaccines than many GPs and HVs, if the ones I've come across are representative. I have actually done a lot of reading (and have the qualifications to understand it) and so I know that some of the things I've been told with absolute confidence by various health care professionals are at best an oversimplification, and sometimes patently false. It's really knocked my faith in them quite honestly, and when I find a Dr who is honest about the limitations and uncertainties of treatments/interventions (who tend to be the more experienced ones) I really appreciate it. I think very few Drs keep up to date with all the original research, there is simply too much, and rely instead on material sent down from the DoH.

I also agree that the official recommendations are designed with many things in mind, including economic factors and clinical convenience, and that the benefits and risks of vaccines are often not considered realistically, including by HCPs. It is naive in the extreme to assume that someone deviating from official recommendations is always putting themselves and everyone around them at risk.

In practice, I know very few people who actually refuse to vaccinate at all, and none who do so lightly because they glanced at an anti-vax website. Most people with concerns either stick to the important ones or spread them out. The very high vaccine uptake rates just underline how much of a non-issue this is.

I know very few people who actually refuse to vaccinate at all

Sadly I don't - I have a mostly professional group of friends who live and work in London, and I know a fair few who won't vaccinate. One is a homeopathic practitioner and doesn't believe in toxins and simply won't accept that there isn't mercury lurking in all vaccines.

Guess where she read that? On the internet. By "doing her own research".

But just in case you're that awful one in a million case, we are going to inject your child with a cocktail of god knows what

There are two basic fallacies there. In the developed world the death rate is in the region of 1 in 5000, but the morbidity rate - i.e. serious illnesses and disability - is in the region of 1 in 50. If I can avoid a 1:50 risk by agreeing to a vaccine that has been tried and tested over 50 years, then in the absence of any other risk factor for my particular child I'm going to go for the vaccine. Secondly, it is, of course, manifestly untrue that "god knows what" is in vaccinations. The information about what is in them could hardly be more freely available.

Mega, as I said, that was intended for the OP. A particular paper on WC had been linked to.

I know that, bumbley. I was answering your question about why I referred to only one paper.

The whole point avout doing your own research is that you satisfy yourself that you are doing the right thing for your child. The whole point!

So do you do that in relation to every decision relating to your child's wellbeing? Do you do in-depth research before doing your shopping, before buying something in a restaurant, before accepting a lift in a car or getting on to a plane? Or do you at some point decide you have to trust other people who are trained to know what they are doing?

Mimi, how do you know you have read all the same books and literature that every doctor and scientist advocating vaccination has? Realistically that would entail your taking a medical degree followed by a lengthy research programme. Have you?

So do you do that in relation to every decision relating to your child's wellbeing? Do you do in-depth research before doing your shopping, before buying something in a restaurant, before accepting a lift in a car or getting on to a plane? Or do you at some point decide you have to trust other people who are trained to know what they are doing?

Actually, I for one have researched everything about my children's life in quite a lot of detail, from which nappies to put them in, through what diets are the most healthy, and which car seats are best. Maybe I'm unusual that way.

Mimi, how do you know you have read all the same books and literature that every doctor and scientist advocating vaccination has

You seem to be assuming that all Drs are very well read on the topic of vaccinations. My experience is that this is rarely the case, beyond the basics that are taught on any biology degree course. (You also seem to be assuming that all vaccines are basically the same in terms of effectiveness, safety, mechanism of action and necessity which isn't really true, but then this whole thread is based on that premise so can't blame you for that.)

You also seem to be assuming that all vaccines are basically the same in terms of effectiveness, safety, mechanism of action and necessity which isn't really true

which makes it even less likely that your individual, non peer reviewed conclusions are going to be accurate. as I said to a PP upthread, would you trot off to an immunology convention and expect people to listen to your "research" as you tell them all that they really don't know very much, and if only they'd done the reading that you have...

you can research what you like about car seats, as that won't affect anyone else. vaccines can, and do.