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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

854 replies

GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 11/02/2017 21:24

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

OP posts:
PandasRock · 15/02/2017 09:58

Yy, totally agree re: being left untreated.

I've had a few cases (thankfully nothing as serious or far-reaching as epilepsy (yet)) where dd1 has been left untreated where mynother two would not have been. It's just not acceptable.

We're in a big wait-and-see (and try to protect the younger two as much as possible). On good days, we're still out and about. At school she is still doing ok (social worker only assessed at school, hence the no-support package!) and can hold it together. So it's wait and see. Fun fun fun.

Morphene · 15/02/2017 10:01

devil this is about averages though. I mean I can say on average men are taller than women...and you can bang on about tall women and short men you have know all you like but it doesn't change anything.

On average, doctors (and more importantly NICE) know a shit load more about vaccine safety than the general public. Of course you can point to doctors that don't know some specific thing, or a member of the public who has devoted years and years of time to understand their child's specific condition, but it won't change the fact that ON AVERAGE the public knows nowhere near as much as the medical profession about vaccine safety.

bumbleymummy · 15/02/2017 10:01

GoesDown, why do you think people wouldn't have access to the latest information? Why do you think people can't cross reference and analyse unless they're a doctor/nurse? Why do you assume they would only use one source? You have very strange ideas about what qualifications are needed to be able to access, read and understand information.

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 15/02/2017 10:04

No bumbley, you make frightening assumptions about your own abilities, and you are too arrogant to see it. Because that's the problem with doing it yourself, there is nobody to tell you if you are right or wrong!

If you went along to the European immunology conference and raised your research, do you think you'd be taken seriously?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 15/02/2017 10:09

GoesDown, you know absolutely nothing about me or my abilities so you really aren't in a position to say that I'm making assumptions about them :)

PandasRock · 15/02/2017 10:10

If I went along and asked questions, I don't think I'd be told the blanket 'just vaccinate, it's for the best' that I get from a GP (or indeed a previous paed).

Do you think I'd be told that, Sick?

What would you do in my situation? What would you have done?

Because the fact is, some people are at a much higher risk of complications from vaccination than others.

And sometimes, you don't know that until you've already been there, and are already wearing the t shirt.

And then you get ridiculed and patronised and told you don't know what you're talking about, because you'd rather not do the same with a second (and/or subsequent) child.

So again, what would you do?

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 10:10

Morphene - that's not really been my experience, although I do have a lot of very well educated friends. I would say the knowledge of the average GP and well educated interested parent is pretty similar.

But TBH the only people I know in large numbers who haven't vaccinated have an older affected child. So they may well have done more research than the average GP before reaching that decision. No idea - as I said I don't see other people's vaccination choices as any of my business.

Vaccination rates are extremely high in the U.K. the highest they have ever been and above the magic 95% for pretty much everything except mumps iirc from when I last looked. Other people may not need their decisions policed.

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 10:12

Anyone can read the minutes of the JCVI btw (or at least they could last time I looked).

Morphene · 15/02/2017 10:13

Some members of the public may have access to the pay per view articles on the latest research, some may have the statistical knowledge to understand the level of confidence in the various findings within, some may have the biochemistry/physiology background to develop meaningful conclusions from the data, but the overwhelming majority will have none of these abilities.

I actually have all three of these elements at various levels, enough to know that it would take more time than I have to unpick all the details. There is a funded body in the UK whose entire remit is to look at the risk/benefit/cost analysis of all treatments available. I think they will do a far better job their job than I will. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 10:16

And as for doctors. Ds1's first paediatrician (whose arrogance did not match his ability) laughed at me and rolled his eyes when I told him about an intervention we were trying with ds1.

Fast forward 10 years and Ds1's (very good) neurologist recommended it to me as worth a go.

Morphene · 15/02/2017 10:16

Devil may I respectfully suggest you are in a bit of a bubble there? I mean at least 95% of the people I know can do differential calculus...but I don't fall into the trap of thinking that is representative of the country as a whole!

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 10:17

Morphene - if you don't have an average child.

None of the data I find relates to ds1. I occasionally find a case study describing a similar response. That's it.

Unless there is a govt official paid to find stats relating to people like ds1 I have to do it myself.

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 10:20

And morphene I am not arguing that people's vaccination decisions are anything to do with me. I don't actually care what people read. Do I think people are capable of reading it if they really want to? Yes. If they have an atypical child am I confident their GP will know anything useful? No.

I (& parents like me) have spent hours reading & researching as there is no-one else to do it.

bumbleymummy · 15/02/2017 10:22

Morphene, because they'll be looking at it from a population level and people might want to look at it at an individual level?

For example, the JCVI decided to only offer the menB vaccine to the most at risk group (under 1s) because, given the incidence in the other groups and the efficacy of the vaccine, it wasn't cost effective to offer it to older children. Despite their decision, many parents decided to pay privately to have their older children vaccinated because when they weighed it up at an individual level, they felt it was worthwhile.

lottieandmia · 15/02/2017 10:22

Yes when my daughter was diagnosed with autism, I told the consultant paediatrician that I wanted her to do ABA. She gave me a concerned look at said 'well, these weird and wonderful techniques are everywhere but best avoided. In the US they were injecting kids with secretin'

This was about 13 years ago. This person obviously was (should have been!) far more qualified than the average GP and yet she had no idea about ABA which is recognised to be a good teaching technique for children with autism.

If you allow yourself to be nannied by the state without thinking for yourself Your child will miss out on opportunities. At best...

MimiTheWonderGoat · 15/02/2017 10:26

and that's the only reason? hahaha. do you really think that solicitors just google clauses in a lease? really?

No, they also have insurance to back them should anything go wrong. I don't.
You were the one asking why I hadn't just done the conveyancing myself. I never suggested that I could have or that I wanted to. It's their job. I have a full time job. I don't have time to do their job as well. But, if we're talking about my child and medical interventions, it's my job to look after her and make sure I know as much as I can.

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 15/02/2017 10:33

And sometimes, you don't know that until you've already been there, and are already wearing the t shirt.

yes, that is my point about you and devilish. most people are not in this informed position and therefore are not as equipped to understand it.

*And then you get ridiculed and patronised and told you don't know what you're talking about, because you'd rather not do the same with a second (and/or subsequent) child.

So again, what would you do?*

I would go elsewhere at once and mortgage my soul to pay for it if I had to. and if I got the same reaction, i'd go elsewhere again. because i'm not saying it's not ok to question doctors, and your situation is far removed from the one I asked the original question about in any event. I'm saying that it's not ok for people to assume they know best.

mimi has just shown it again - HOW DOES SHE KNOW SHE KNOWS AS MUCH AS SHE CAN WHEN THERE IS NOTHING TO ASSESS IT AGAINST?! she can't. all she can do is satisfy herself. which may or may not put her child and other children/vulnerable people at risk, depending on her decision and what happens.

you could give the same report to 5 different lay people and ask them to read it - do you really think they'd all think the same thing? but they'd all think they were right if nobody with expertise on the topic explained otherwise.

OP posts:
Morphene · 15/02/2017 10:35

I am not arguing against anyone looking into things for their specific circumstances....

I am saying that the statement that on average people would do better to follow the advice of the organisations set up for the explicit purpose of working out the best advice to give, rather than following their own intuition or part time work on google is accurate.

It doesn't preclude individuals with more time, motivation, and intellectual capacity being able to get a more detailed answer for themselves.

I mean a member of the public could come in off the street and read one of my research papers, understand it and come up with an interpretation I hadn't considered. It isn't impossible - just very unlikely.

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 10:36

To be honest you're never going to know whether her decision was right or not. I wish I hadn't vaccinated ds1. If I had my time again it is the one decision I would change.

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 10:39

And morphene considering vaccination rates are so high how many people do you think are deciding not to vaccinate on a whim?

If someone decides not to vaccinate her third child because the previous 2 have ended up in icu following vaccination (& she followed advice in getting the second child vaccinated) then I couldn't care less whether she can understand a research paper or not.

Her decision.

lottieandmia · 15/02/2017 10:40

Nobody 'knows' that they are doing the right thing at any time. That's why parenting is difficult.

People who don't vaccinate are present all the time as smug know it alls. In fact most of them are probably worried about not vaccinating and won't have taken the decision lightly.

Megatherium · 15/02/2017 10:41

Devilish, I don't think anyone is questioning that the family gets left to decide. That's the law, at least in this country. The question is whether all families are sufficiently well informed to make that decision, or whether some children are put in danger because people get spooked by all the anti-vaxx conspiracy theories floating around.

Megatherium · 15/02/2017 10:42

...because mortgage lenders insist upon you employing a qualified solicitor! They work on the mortgage lender's behalf...as well as yours.

That doesn't actually stop you doing your own conveyancing and leaving the solicitors to act solely for the lender, if you're convinced you would do a better job.

Megatherium · 15/02/2017 10:45

Why do you assume that people get their information from one paper/source?

Bumbley, I was responding to your question "Why do you think it takes a medical degree to read and understand a paper showing that the WC outbreaks are due to waning immunity?". It was you who referred to "a paper" in the singular.

MimiTheWonderGoat · 15/02/2017 10:49

..because mortgage lenders insist upon you employing a qualified solicitor! They work on the mortgage lender's behalf...as well as yours.

That doesn't actually stop you doing your own conveyancing and leaving the solicitors to act solely for the lender, if you're convinced you would do a better job.

This is crazy! I NEVER SAID I COULD DO A BETTER JOB. I simply said I looked up clauses that I didn't understand! You don't borrow hundreds of thousands of pounds from a bank against a property if you don't read and understand the lease! That would being some special kind of crazy!