To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

[GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick]

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

As I explained a while ago. The experts (by which I mean highly experienced consultants) have no idea what is going on with my son. I have been told 'we don't know', 'ask me again in 15-20 years' 'that's quite possible but we don't know' etc etc.

So I went back to the original research, contacted some researchers direct & made up my own mind based on the evidence currently available.

Far too late for my eldest.

They did research here on students that caught mumps at uni and none of those that mmr had any serious complications, no encephalatis or orchitis.

Do you have a link to that study? I'd be interested to read it.

Incidentally my 10 week old unvaccinated baby was exposed to whooping cough. Quite a large exposure as well! And didn't get it. I assume my maternal antibodies worked. Ironically I probably developed them playing with my friend who's children exposed my son. She was off school with whooping cough, I was still in quarantine with measles - so we played together (it was the 70's)

Whose

No, cote - that ball has sailed over your head.

You are choosing your expert to rely on for that vaccine - but you've just said that the experts don't agree and that's the problem.

But now it's ok to do what I said after all and get an expert in the first place?

You don't get it and that's OK, OP. We each do what we can.

Bettyspants

But who, exactly are 'the experts'? Are they scientists? Or are they politicians making decisions based on disease control?

The 'experts' themselves have an agenda which is not always in the interests of the individual.

And if I'd listened to the experts in my daughters case, she'd still be stuck in a school where she learned nothing and became very stressed. Just to give an unrelated example.

Finding cotes comments amusing at best. it always amazes me how the self proclaimed vaccine (anti)experts come up with nonsense replies, proving time and time again the lack of understanding of simple research process in addition to the process of introducing a new or revised vaccine. I've found only 1 parent in 20 years of healthcare that was able to show a good understanding of p values and confidence intervals when discussing original papers. Some of us do make the time to ensure parents have answers to their questions instead of relying on a Google search (Google researchers still amaze me with the complete rubbish that is presented as proof vaccines are a bad option) . The only one time I felt he as a parent was making an informed decision to not vaccinate, not a decision I agreed with but the one time I felt assured that he knew and understood the risks.It can be incredibly frustrating when I've spent a large proportion of a working day treating children with severe complications of illness that may well have been prevented by following a very simple vaccine program. The very simple lack of understanding of morbidity and mortality rates are also presented to be out of context , it's really quite shocking. Of course no vaccine will be 100%safe, no medicine can be seen as 100%safe. However as I've very sadly seen recently those types of people will only realise how ignorant they have been when their actions directly affects their own family. Proven time and time again . It's taken me 2 decades to realise that I can educate on a face to face basis , showing examples of bias . Incidentally my interest in vaccines stemmed from prior to a medical background when I was searching for natural methods. Amazing what a little knowledge of the research process can do.

Lottie that comment really does put emphasis on my above ramblings, a lack of understanding which is very common

Betty - I have studied Probability and Risk at graduate (Master's) level. Please point out the "nonsense" in that post, if you can, assuming that was the one you were referring to.

I have never portrayed myself a "vaccine expert", self-proclaimed or otherwise.

I am not amused by the condescension in your post. If you see an error, correct it.

Oh stop being so patronising(!)

I don't claim to be a scientist but certainly I'm an expert on what it's like to live with a disabled teenager. You should try it some time and maybe then you'd understand why some people are concerned about brain damage which is why they are hesistant about their child being vaccinated.

That was to Betty...

Yes, Cote. And I will sleep better knowing that I have done what I can to protect my child without putting others at risk.

You can use your "lessons" on probability and risk to help you get to sleep :)

Mega - so you don't believe in vaccine damage?

LottieandMia, I believe in vaccine damage which has been proven to be vaccine damage; not the anecdotal and third hand evidence that anti-vaxxers always come up with.

It's all very well to pontificate about how altruistic you are for supporting a vaccination programme when you don't know what it's like to live with a severely disabled teenager.

Why would you assume that? In fact, I do. I also know what it was like for my grandmother living with a child, teenager and then adult who had been severely disabled as a result of measles damage.

Bettys - how often do you spend a large proportion of your day battling illnesses that can be protected by routinely given vaccinations?

And how much time do you spend looking at the individual in front of you rather than explaining population statistics?

FWIW I understand p values & confidence intervals. (Not exactly difficult).

In between this argument I am working on a piece of work involving drug related side effects. It does intrigue me that they are generally accepted without question (or well neatly without question - my son's heavy duty drug started giving him side effects 2 weeks after starting it. I was told it was impossible - by the time it was recognised I was right we couldn't get him off the bloody thing. So now he has a low dose of another heavy duty drug to deal with the side effects of the first - you couldn't make it up). But anyway - why is drug related damage/side effects accepted as something that happens while vaccine damage isn't?

I don't actually care about your sleeping habits or what you do to protect your child, OP.

You shouldn't care about mine, either.

Learn to talk on a subject without making it personal.

How do you prove vaccine damage mega? Generally you can't unless you go through the courts.

Haven't RTFT but wanted to say you should live and let live. You don't always know the full story. I used to raise an eyebrow at people who decide not to vaccinate but then I came across a few MN threads over he years where really genuine, distraught parents reported extreme and adverse side effects and reactions to a vaccine. Many were advised by medics to advise vaccinating further because of this. It would be insult to injury if they then were hammered by other people for their choice.

So great, take as many as you like (we take everything going) but just have a little more compassion for those who have a good reason for deciding not to. Maybe be glad you haven't had the misfortune to experience what they have?

yep cote - the fact that you absolutely don't care about other people or the effects that your unilateral decisions about public health can have on them has come across loud and clear. Keep on trying to justify it to yourself because you once got sick as a child and were fine though, you're doing a GREAT job :)

'Why would you assume that? In fact, I do. I also know what it was like for my grandmother living with a child, teenager and then adult who had been severely disabled as a result of measles damage.'

Well that's the point isn't it? That an illness or a vaccination can cause damage. Hence why it's a difficult issue. And why it's not helpful for people to call others 'cuntish', 'selfish', 'ignorant' or whatever when they are trying to protect their child.

Bedtime - the original thread was absolutely not about someone like that. It's a friend whose kids got vaccinated and were fine, but has NOW decided that the government and big pharma control everyone for money because there ain't no dollar in healthy folks. And his friend "really hopes trump sorts out the CDC". just.... what?!?

Lottie, I didn't use any of those adjectives.

The issue is whether people really are protecting their child, particularly when they act on the basis of a bit of Googling.

Lottie - If you read posts about cherry picking with no medical knowledge and assumptions about which diseases are serious and which her kid can spread with impunity because hey it's everyone else's problem - and you think that is just being concerned mum then - ok, but aren't you glad most people don't conduct themselves in such a fashion?!

"your unilateral decisions about public health"

I make unilateral (no less) decisions about public health?

I make decisions about the health of my own children which I am supposed to do, given that we are talking about optional vaccines.

I can repeat this until you get it, or you can just let it go and accept that parents prioritize their children's well-being over that of strangers. Which is normal.

Frankly, this is becoming tiresome.

(Or dad, doesn't have to be a mum!)