To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

[GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick]

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

I think that most of the people on here pointing out the limitations of specific vaccines (who generally aren't actually against vaccines in principle) have demonstrated quite a high level of scientific understanding. How many staunch 'pro-vaxers' have studied the topic in as much detail, and how many assume that others (Drs etc) have done it for them?

I have a science PhD.

Hope that helps.

"I think that most of the people on here pointing out the limitations of specific vaccines (who generally aren't actually against vaccines in principle) have demonstrated quite a high level of scientific understanding."

I think that devilish has, not so much that it would put me off vaccinating or change my views on people who peddle anti-vax stuff, but at least in a far more intelligent way than the original crap about "big pharma controlling the sheeple fb" post. Most of the rest of it just reads like dr google thinks he's clever, tbh.

Firstly allergic reactions are tested, they are top of the bloody risk lists for vaccines under development. Whoever spoke is talking utter nonsense.

I recommend everyone reads Blind Faith by Ben Elton. Total fiction with a very chilling message of where anti Vaccination advocacy might lead us.

Or read history of course of life before vaccines. Antibiotics are not the answer to everything.

Me too devilish. Isn't it ironic to be told that we should listen to experts?

Isn't the reason for vax against mumps and rubella more to do with the complications than the actual illness though? Ie, Infertility in men and damage to unborn children? Measles is more due to the illness itself.

"I recommend everyone reads Blind Faith by Ben Elton. Total fiction"

Because fiction is where we should turn to in order to form our opinions on health and vaccination?

"Or read history of course of life before vaccines. Antibiotics are not the answer to everything."

I certainly hope you realise that antibiotics are totally irrelevant to a discussion on viral infections such as measles, mumps, and rubella.

Owlinatree

No mumps used to be one of the leading causes of deafness and encephalitis in the western world
and it is incorrect that mmr leading to mumps causing problems in later life. Before the booster shot for mmr, those who did catch mumps in later life had it mildly and did not get the worst after affects.

For those who are interested in the urabe strain of mmr this is really good evaluationacademic.oup.com/aje/article/165/6/704/63700/Risks-of-Convulsion-and-Aseptic-Meningitis urabe strain is still in use.

Yep youcannot

There is no argument to counter why we no longer have polio or smallpox epidemics. The risk of the vaccine outweighs the risk of the disease. Thats why we vaccinate.

Each side clearly believes they are the only side that has done any research and knows the facts. I've never seen a vaccine debate change anyones mind.

Except the risk is different for different individuals. The risk is actually an individual risk - not a population one.

Both brands of MMR currently used in the U.K. contain Jeryl Lynn strain mumps.

bruffin it's now widely accepted that waning mumps immunity in adulthood following two doses of the MMR is leading to outbreaks of Mumps in adults. While the MMR gives protection in childhood, it wears off at a time when the risks of complications are much higher.

One study demonstrating this is linked to below.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26987576

And the risks of complications only really become significant if you catch it after puberty. Generally people caught it earlier than that when it was still circulating, so Mumps was not considered a serious disease for most.

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Mumps/Pages/Complications.aspx

How many teenagers or children are killed in car accidents every year? Statistically it is significantly many more than those who are damaged by vaccines.

Yet how many of the unqualified parents who think they are so clever with their research will stop their children from driving or getting in a car?

Stop arguing and just walk away? People have their reasons not to, you have your reasons that you do. My youngest isn't allowed any live vaccines so some of the choice is taken for her. I'm ok with vaccines and I'm also ok with those who don't. I don't think all the arguments are needed, you do you and leave it at that.

yOUCANTBESERIOUS

They did research here on students that caught mumps at uni and none of those that mmr had any serious complications, no encephalatis or orchitis.

I'm not "clever with research".

My DD didn't have her MMR until she was 14.

No, but you already explained several pages ago that you were advised to do that by your dr, right? So you took professional advice, you didn't google it and decide for yourself which diseases your kids could spread freely around the neighbourhood and which they couldn't!

I don't get your point bruffin. Mumps is nearly always mild - cases of sterility following mumps are rare (but always post pubertal). Likewise mumps encephalitis is rare. The mildness of mumps in children was an argument used for not introducing mass vaccination against it.

However, complications are more common post childhood - so if you alter the age at which people get mumps that may become an issue.

Unfortunately there's a huge proportion of anti vaxxers who have absolutely no idea how to recognise valid evidence. There's a huge proportion of vaxxers who don't either, but they chose to leave that research to the experts.

Although the fact that other kids had been vaccinated must have made it easier for your daughter to wait as there was far less chance of her getting measles, for example?

*Although the fact that other kids had been vaccinated must have made it easier for your daughter to wait as there was far less chance of her getting measles, for example?
*

Yes, but the whooping cough jabs didn''t stop my son from getting whooping cough.

"they chose to leave that research to the experts"

As I said before, that approach fails when experts disagree re best course of action.

No, nothing is 100%, that was v unlucky. wc is awful in a baby.

Which is when you appoint yourself as queen of the experts armed with your trusty keyboard and wifi connection!

Actually, that is when I give the example of Gardasil and you start with your personal attacks, showing that you are truly incapable of playing the ball rather than the player [hm]

Gardasil (HPV vaccine) which is offered to 11-year-olds around here - what you would consider the gospel as revealed by "medical experts". However, both my gynecologist & DD's paediatrician said that it's better to delay it to a later age, when possible side effects are much rarer. And that is what we are doing.