Fracking

[Againstfracking]

Lancashire voted NO to Fracking but it's been forced on us by the Government. We don't want it! What can we do?

lynB Unless you live without electricity, transport, food etc you have to realise the modern world relies on fossil fuels. This will change over time but slowly because the battery power and infrastructure is not there.
As such, we need fossil fuels and fracking, practiced in this country for many years and now extended horizontally is part of the answer.
Is it completely risk free? no. Is it more likely you will die driving than from fracking? Yes.

Fracking has not been practiced in the U.K. for years. That's not true. It's been done once and was stopped because it caused 2 earthquakes. This is easily verified by a search...

Here's another little snippet from the BBC today.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39032748

We said NO.

And this... if Cuadrilla aren't even bothering to abide by agreement and regulations now... before the pad is built, I cannot imagine that we can trust them a couple of years hence?

www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/revealed-cuadrilla-planning-start-drilling-without-completing-groundwater

"The UK has experience of hydraulic fracturing and directional drilling for non-shale gas applications. Over the last 30 years, more than 2,000 wells have been drilled onshore in the UK, approximately 200 (10%) of which have been hydraulically fractured to enhance recovery."

royalsociety.org/~/media/policy/projects/shale-gas-extraction/2012-06-28-shale-gas.pdf

Informal... No it hasn't.
Fracking that we are discussing has been carried out onshore at one site in preese hall Nr Blackpool. It caused 2 earthquakes and was stopped.
In the report you posted it states that hydraulic fracturing in the UK is still at the exploration stage and small scale. That is correct.
In Lancashire where we voted NO we have had it forced on us by the Govt. We are doing all we can to get rid of the Frackers.

LynB - I don't think you can class wastewater injection wells as "stuff that the Fracking industry thinks it's ok to get away with" though. That's like saying that fracking companies are the only people to drive HGVs, or use generators or whatever. The article said that the majority of wastewater actually wasn't from the fracking industry...yet you put the earthquakes squarely at the feet of the "frackers"?

And I think your comment that they aren't "supposed to do it in the UK...(but) would were there not regulations stopping them" shows a very limited understanding of UK environmental regulation (fair enough...it's pretty dull...). If companies do not have a permit to do something they need a permit for (like inject water, from any source, into boreholes) - they cannot do it. Whether they would want to or not. And that applies to everyone - not just oil and gas. Though any company wanting to do something they know will damage the environment, won't have a cat's chance of getting consent to do it anyway.

Also, the link to the Friends of the Earth blog (who I wouldn't take as an entirely accurate source given some recent events) seems to ignore the fact that the Infrastructure Act specifically refers to 12 months of sampling before "associated hydraulic fracturing" (rather than drilling) takes place. Which it is likely will be the case assuming it will take a few months to drill the well and get the pumps and so on onto site. So all is good, no...?

Go me and my links.

Speaking of which, can you really say you approve of the intimidation of workers and businesses that has been going on around the PNR site? I appreciate there may not have strictly been arrests as a result - but the fact allegations of threats and violence have been made is very serious, not to mention the fact that it seems several small local firms are having to pull out of their contracts or not be able to deliver supplies to their other clients. Is that fair?

I'm sure neither side is squeaky clean (especially given the tensions obviously present) - but Cuadrilla do have the fact that they are lawfully going about their business on their side. Just because others don't like that business doesn't give people the right to prevent that - surely?

LynB

From the Royal Society report:

On earthquakes: Survey records indicate that coal mining-related seismicity is generally of smaller magnitude than natural seismicity and no larger than 4 ML. Seismicity induced by hydraulic fracturing is likely to be of even smaller magnitude

Shale gas extraction may be new, but fracking oil wells has been going on for years - the only difference is horizontal drilling makes larger areas accessible from one well head and makes the process much more efficient. This means areas previously un-economic to drill now make sense.

Lynb - hydraulic fracturing has been used in the UK for years. It is a new application to use it to extract from unconventional deposits but it is still a well used technique.

There's more info on earthquakes here and here. The first is a summary of man-made seismicity in the UK (a fair amount, often related to coal mining as indicated in caroldecker's bit from the Royal Society report) and the second about the magnitude of specifically "fracking" earthquakes.

And I've found out that fracking in geothermal boreholes can produce greater potential earthquakes than fracking for shale gas. Every day's a school day .

User... it's not just 'not liking Cuadrillas business' it's far more than that. Your statement shows that you really haven't quite grasped the fury and outrage at the Government forcing fracking on us when we voted NO.
Those of us that think Fracking is an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to inflict on us and our environment aren't going to be pacified by any links to assurances of regulations.
I watch daily whilst Cuadrilla (or their contractors) don't adhere to agreements or traffic management... This is during the build. You can look these up yourself the videos are freely available.
The Frackers have no social licence at all and are ignoring their corporate social responsibilities forcing it on us.
Most civil rights movements are based on a wrong being righted. Fracking is no different. This is wrong.
The suffragettes were subject to the same approbation. Is it right to take direct action etc?
I feel (now) that sometimes extreme measures have to be taken when you are protecting your community and family. I also feel disgusted that the Government has put us in this position.

Thanks for your response LynB - I can see you are obviously upset by it all. Although I live in a licensed area, Im not right in the middle of everything, and I get that it must be very frustrating to have strong opinions that seem to be ignored by the people who should listen.

I suppose that if you do believe that something is wrong, it is difficult to see any way that it could be made right - which is kind of how the process works for this kind of development (identifying a problem/ risk and then trying to find a way to stop that problem happening). Though that probably doesn't really help...

I think what I do have a problem with though is that this is not just a "whim" of Cuadrilla - that haven't just rocked up to a field and started drilling. Ultimately, they are trying to produce something that people want to buy. They have gone through the processes, got the planning consent, environmental permits and so on. A lot of independent people who know what they are talking about have investigated and agree that the process as Cuadrilla is proposing it is acceptable, and these people (and a lot of others) will be checking it is done properly. The fact you say there are issues indicates that these conditions are there in the first place, have a reason for being there, and therefore following them is important. However, from what I have seen, some of the things that are being claimed as "breaches" have been as a result of the protest activity - still technically wrong, but in the circumstances, not really the activity which is causing the most disturbance in the area (which is what the condition is there to prevent).

I appreciate there may be frustration with the planning system or whatever - but that is the system we have, and it has been designed to balance the needs of the country, with the needs of local people, with the needs of the environment. It is a totally valid part of the planning system for locally unpopular decisions to get the go-ahead more centrally as I said earlier.

Personally I think the local community should try to screw Cuadrilla for as much money as they can work with Cuadrilla to ensure that the temporary disturbance that they are experiencing to provide Cuadrilla with the means to produce gas is robustly compensated. But I assume that ship may have sailed, and I'd be interested to see if it can come back again!

Taking money off them would be considered taking a bribe to allow them to destroy our environment. It would be 'blood' money. What they are doing to 'us' is unethical. Now I'm aware that can be debated and I'm sure you will know lots about 'ethics', but that is the only word I can use.
If you feel something is unethical then you aren't going to take money and just turn a blind eye? Well we aren't. Some will (some have) and others don't feel it's unethical to do it so that's up to them.
I can't describe it any better.
To some it's sensibly using the earths resources to make money and use. To others it's a stupid heinous crime against our planet and humanity.
:/

Forbes is hardly a scaremongering rag

"There is growing evidence of a variety of health problems being associated with fracking. Common sense dictates that drinking and breathing cancer-causing agents will take its toll. The correlation is too strong to ignore, especially when we have other, cleaner energy options. For our safety and that of future generations, we should not allow the new administration to sell off public lands, nor allow drilling on our land, and should ban fracking completely."

www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2017/02/23/fracking-is-dangerous-to-your-health-heres-why/#f98c94852c16

LynB That article is not the view of Forbes. It is by Judy Stone, a contributor. Forbes state: Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own. Thus not researched article.

Carol why would you say the article wasn't researched? Just because it states that Fracking is likely to cause harm to the environment and human health? It's not the only article or report to state that. There are many others, they can't all be made up? TBH it's just stating what most of us know to be the 'bleeding obvious.'

Forbes is a well known and trusted publication. They are unlikely to pay a journalist to write for them if she wasn't respected and professional?

This is her article from last week.
Is it just full of lies and made up stuff? I've read it and checked out some of her statements. They seem to be quite easily verified?
I know this is in USA but it's still an insight into the mindset of the type of people who want to do it... gagging orders etc.? I mean really..?

www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2017/02/17/fracking-and-what-new-epa-means-for-your-health/#23c4fd5238e1

My point is Forbes do not pay her, just publish her.

"I know this is in USA "

That's exactly the point of the article - the EPA has not had the teeth to regulate fracking well enough in the past (see comments on the Halliburton loophole and just remember who Halliburton's CEO was), and with Pruitt now being head of the EPA you can expect the whole regulatory regime to be dismantled in the coming months.

It doesn't matter how many regulations you print or say they have to adhere to, corners get cut and mistakes are made.
Why not just not do it? It's not 'nice.'

Another state in USA banning it... sensibly.

www.newsleader.com/story/news/local/2017/02/23/augusta-first-county-va-ban-fracking/98304310/

Augusta is a county, not a state.

And, having supervised a lot of UK onshore drilling, yes there are a hell of a lot of regulations that you have to adhere to for safety, health and environmental - particularly with respect to groundwater protection.

So sorry... another county in the USA sensibly voting to ban Fracking.

And now we learn that burning North American wood pellets in Drax is actually a disaster, and we learn that polar bear numbers are rocketing.

Its time to ditch these green scaremongers

thenevadaindependent.com/article/lawmaker-proposes-statewide-fracking-ban

It's quite bizarre that any government would force such a thing on its people.

www.desmogblog.com/2017/02/23/study-finds-connection-between-oil-and-gas-development-and-childhood-leukemia