Abuse? What would you have done?

[Cubtrouble]

Went to museum yesterday.

In a line for film there with my child (5), there was a family a few people in front of us, mum, dad, boy and girl, boy was around 8/9, girl maybe 7 or 8.

Girl was attached to mother wrist with "lead" like a fabric strap, loop at either ends round her and mums wrist. Mother was an absolute animal, shouting loudly at this poor girl, stand still or I will smack you, get back next to me, stop this, stop moving, etc, in the line and again in the pre film briefing, "sit still, for Christ sake stop moving"
The girl complained the strap was tight and it was loosened roughly with the mother telling her off yet again. She was roughly yanked along when it was time to leave.

The behaviour was noticed by plenty of other people. It was loud and very aggressive.

I wanted to say something- staff noticed but no one did anything.

The dad was at least 6'4. He didn't utter a word. The mum was short and fat and angry.

I was obviously with my own child and on my own and I didn't think I could say anything without altercation and that would have been frightening for my own child. I was genuinely concerned it could have turned out badly for ME. So I kept quiet.

The kids for what it's worth looked clean and well cared for in nice clothes.

What would you have done???

Didn't see that again. Was obvious to staff who could have removed them from the show or told her to stop? But should they?

Nice glass, we were in line in a bright lit area, girl and family, a couple, a group of four adults and then around the barrier me and my own child- we were in good view diagonally of the family. There were people in front of the family.

The girl didn't mess with the barrier, make a lot of noise or do anything I would have reacted to. I can't lie- I'm fairly strict when my kids are out. Table manners- behaving in public. The girl did nothing wrong.

She stepped maybe one or two steps near her brother and got yanked by the wrist strap- now it has a name you'll notice I have only called it the wrist strap ok.
Get back ere. Stop moving, stand still will you. If you don't stand still you're going get a smack, do you want a smack? We're going home.

People behind mutter a comment about miss trunchball from Matilda. People in front - older couples raising eye brows- the two women say- whys she got a lead, one of the men is shaking his head. Two kids at the back of the line swinging on the barrier and making a row- their parents said nothing about!

We go into pre show (2 minutes long) they are now sat directly in front of us and the girl is bending over double to reach her feet or socks, and gets the comment about the strap being bloody tight. I tutted. I wanted to say something. Mother loosens strap and after moaning and being nasty to the kid for the whole time we finally go into theatre show room, they go in the front row, she botched at her once at they sat down but didn't hear any more and they left first.

That's as full as I can remember. I did not mean to drip feed

38cody. I stated a fact. Saying someone is short and fat is not being judgemental. That's stating a fact.

I am also fat I might add- as I have previously stated.

Being fat does not make you a shit mother. As I have said.

Lala- I get your point but this was not a really little kid- her hand wouldn't have been way above her head. I'd say she was around 7- maybe older

It doesn't look brilliant, admittedly, but one of my DC (I have 5 very close in age) has a tendency to bolt, fiddle and break stuff and so whenever we are out, I do have to continually be making sure that they are close to me, not wandering off and will fiddle with socks, shoes and generally be extremely distracted and needs help to focus on stuff.

So I am aware that when we are out, I am constantly needing to give directive instructions all the time, i.e. 'stay close to mummy', 'now we're not going to do xyz are we, press the button, no it's not green do not cross, don't run on the kerb it's a busy road, I SAID DON'T RUN' and could probably sound a bit similar, minus the swearing. It's really wearing when your child is like that and sometimes I do have to resort to threats in order to get them to do as they are told and probably could sound a little bit like this mother in some ways.

It's not abusive though, it's trying to keep said child safe and under control as well as helping them to focus because most of the time they are in their own little world.

The 'come ere' does sound a bit as though they are being judged for being working class though.

Kali110. I spent very little time in these people's company- I don't judge a book by its cover, I saw and heard what I saw and heard.

You are judging me based on the language I've used- what because i said a fat person was fat?? She was short too. I don't really see those things as derogatory- I probably wouldn't say it to someone's face- but I'm not- I'm tall and fat- it's a fact.

She said come HERE. I forgot the H. Typo.

I wouldn't necessarily say there were working class. I'm not starting on that one either, I'm already getting stick for calling a fat person fat.

She called the dad "dad" so i will assume rightly or wrongly it was mum, dad, brother sister. They also looked alike, distinctive hair (very pretty)

But you have judged and now don't like me judging.
You've called her an animal, nasty and decided she must be fat because she eats too much
they are derogatory.
I agree with everything nice has said. She may be a horrible mother, or she may have her hands full with a child who bolts and is constantly trying to do things.
I don't agree with the language, but smacking isn't against the law here right now, even if others don't agree so if that is how she chooses to punish, that's her choice.

FCS doesn't bother me or appall me.
Smacking is allowed. It's not illegal. I'm not condoning it or recommending it, I'm just saying.

niceglass I honestly wasn't trying to imply that you are an abusive parent yourself.

I was commenting on the dynamic on this thread (and I've often seen similar) whereby OP describes something that is out of the ordinary enough to really stick with her, something that is clearly very different in essence to the parent at the end of their tether scenario we've all witnessed (and quite probably been in) - and yet multiple posters do their very best to pick holes in what she has said, question whether that's what really happened, make up imaginary scenarios where the parents were entirely blameless and the child must have somehow provoked it, and generally minimise and deny what OP says she saw.

A similar attitude towards rape and sexual abuse/assault is depressingly prevalent in the wider world but at least on MN there's more of a culture of recognising rape and sexual abuse for what they are, and challenging it. Rape apologists and the rape myths they peddle are more likely to get shot down on here than elsewhere, and rightly so.

I think this dynamic is common enough that it really does bear wondering about. After all, I'm sure every single one of us roundly condemns child abuse, and would like there to be much less of it than there currently is. (That's sincere, not PA.) And yet when faced with a description of something that really sounds abusive, so many people try anything they can to normalise it, to exculpate the parents and make out the OP is making a fuss about nothing. And that kind of thinking is exactly the kind of thinking that allows child abuse to flourish and go unchallenged. If we're serious about wanting to challenge child abuse then we need to look at that dynamic and try and work out where it comes from, what it's about?

I believe one of the biggest reasons people do this is because they're in denial about some aspect of the parenting they themselves received as children. Denial can range from denying something ever happened at all, to denying that it was abuse, to denying the extent of the damage it did and the impact it continues to have, and beyond. Children who are abused habitually use denial as a survival mechanism, because there isn't usually anything else they can do, so they internalise the blame and grow up believing (often unconsciously, where it does the most damage) that their parents really were justified in treating them so appallingly and that they did in fact deserve it.

I'm really sorry niceglass that your own mother treated you like that. It sounds horrific. IME though people often react even more negatively to the suggestion that they were themselves abused as children than to the idea that they are themselves abusive as parents. Tricky one. Denial is a funny thing. But again, I really am sorry about what happened to you, which you didn't deserve any more than this little girl in the queue deserved the way she was treated, and I'm not trying to imply you're abusive yourself.

Lastly - when I said upthread about it being an offence, I wasn't referring to smacking but to sustained emotional abuse under the new "Cinderella" law. Obviously one incident wouldn't be a crime but a sustained pattern of it would be and from what the OP has said there is good reason to believe this situation could be exactly that. Like the safeguarding mantra goes: you have to "think the unthinkable" if you're serious about keeping children safe.

for all abused children, however old they are now.

rixera I relate. My DF could be wonderful. All my friends said what fun he was. We had nice holidays, sometimes abroad if we could afford it. We had pets. When my DF was in a god mood he could be so nice. When he wasn't.....well, let's just say ended up being so scared of him that as time went on we kids (and DM) would avoid him as much as possible. My father was a church goer, always kind to others outside the family. He reserved the rest of the things for us.
He did have what I believe to be undiagnosed mental health issues. His own childhood was horrific. He was not a monster. But what he did to us was no less abuse and no less damaging. TalkingintheDark thanks for the flowers.

Maybe the child had form This is one thing I struggled with in my recovery and still do- "If sometimes the abuse happened because I was bad did it mean it was my fault???" I am not talking about deliberate badness so much in my case but I had behavorial and mental health issues of my own growing up- principally with anxiety, aggressive outbursts, clinginess and self harm. I was a difficult kid. So did that mean I deserved it somehow???? My DF treated my DM and DSIS like dirt too. He couldn't cope with the stress of my issues. So maybe I was to blame???
Apologies for making the thread about me. I am not receiving much outside support to talk about things like this. My therapist is very bad with this kind of thing and i feel judged by her.

The things that could be considered abuse are the shouting, swearing and threatening to smack. If I thought all those things were going on a regular basis then I would consider reporting it.
The rest of it is judgemental bollocks.

You don't know the circumstances or why the mother was at the end of her tether so as to feel the need to speak and act the way she did.

If you didn't actually witness any smacking, perhaps these were just threats. A warning to a child often has the effect intended, so that the physical punishment is no longer necessary.

It's a bit like with a horse. The mere act of carrying a whip and showing it to the horse often has the desired effect - there is often no need to actually use it.

If you were genuinely concerned for the child you should have acted, regardless of the fear of how she would react to you (which would probably have just been verbal, to be honest). Abuse needs to be challenged, looking the other way and then moaning about it later does nothing to help the victim, if victim she was.

Oh dear god. So Barina

It's a bit like with a horse. The mere act of carrying a whip and showing it to the horse often has the desired effect - there is often no need to actually use it

That is nothing but ruling by fear. That's not respect or training. That shows nothing but contempt and cruelty, same as showing a child your hand to let them know that you could physically assault smack / whip them at any time if you choose to. Bullying basically. Fucking cowardly weak bastards , the only power they have over the child/animal is violence. Shameful. If you have to use violence it's because you're a failure.

Lots of making assumptions! We don't know the child had special needs, we don't know the mum was at the end of her tether!

If an 8 year old has a wrist strap on then there is a very high chance that the child has sn.

If it was awful enough to still be preying on your mind, how on earth did you hold back from saying something?

A quick snap at the woman rather than a full confrontation, or quickly asking the kid if she was OK. You could have let the parents know you found their behaviour disturbing without starting a public fist fight with them. As you say, everyone around was thinking the same as you, so you'd have had plenty of folk piling in once someone else spoke up.

cherrypie maybe the child had form - this is victim blaming. Please don't take any notice of people who say that, they're just wrong.

It's very common for abuse survivors to blame themselves - pretty much universal, I'd say - so you are completely "normal" in that respect. But it's never the child's fault that the parent chooses to abuse them. It's not your fault your DF couldn't deal with your MH issues, in fact who knows if his behaviour was actually the root cause of them?

Your therapist sounds worse than useless - if she's not supporting you properly around this then she'll actually be doing more damage, not healing anything, so I'd stop seeing her tbh and find someone who's actually good at what they do. There are some brilliant counsellors and therapists out there, as well as the awful ones!

In the meantime you could post on the SH thread, or if that's too overwhelming (it can get very busy) you could start a thread for support in Relationships. Plenty of people with experience of abusive families over there.

More just for you.

Italian yes, always lots of whatiffery on these threads.

Shatner do you really not get it? If you're on your own with your child and there's a family behaving like that, are you really going to put yourself and your child at risk by intervening? Because if they are able to behave like that in the first place, they're not going to have any compunction in going after you too. You need to protect your own child from emotional harm as well as physical, and them seeing you being torn into by someone so aggressive (with a 6'4" DH to boot) would be very distressing for them. And no, you can't count on everyone else pitching in and defending you if they start on you too. Won't necessarily happen.

Also, do you not see that it could very well be counter productive anyway? If an abusive parent is called up on their behaviour by some random stranger, who do you think they're going to take it out on later? The same person they always take it out on. The one who can't fight back. You might feel better because you've said something and in the short term their day might go a little better, but how do you know that child's life won't then be that little bit worse as a result? Is that a risk you're willing to take?

And there's the fact that abused children usually love their parents just like other children do and for them to see their parent ticked off in public could actually be difficult for them, too, however weird that sounds.

There aren't always easy solutions. Child abuse is horribly complex and twisted and damaging in ways that people who haven't been through it can't always imagine. But at least telling the truth about it is a start. Not all this "oh it was probably just a mum having a bad day" bollocks. The truth is child abuse is going on all around us, all the time, and quite a lot of the time there is fuck all we can do about it, but closing our eyes and pretending it isn't child abuse because we're uncomfortable with our own powerlessness is not the answer.

If enough people get that and get upset enough about it there might eventually be a sea change in attitudes to the point where it becomes just totally unacceptable to treat your child like that in public. You'd still have the issue of what goes on behind closed doors of course, but one step at a time.

I obviously don't get it.

What should one do when a child is being roughly handled and threatened in public, but you know nothing about the family to report to anyone? This is a genuine question.

Chubby = fat doesn't it OP? Interesting that you user a kinder word to describe yourself. I am tall and fat, incidentally.

I don't understand why you didn't speak to the theatre staff if you was worried or concerned, was this in London where no doubt there would have been cctv and so on?

You say they are very close in age so I can only assume there is some kind of additional needs if one was wearing a wrist strap but the other wasn't?

That's exactly the problem. At it stands, I don't think there's anything you can do. And that's what's so awful. But I really believe the first step has to be that we - as a collective we - have to stop minimising and denying it when we do witness abusive behaviour.

It's not going to help in the short term, but over time it's the kind of change in attitude that eventually brings about a cultural shift. That's something anyone can be a part of.

That reply was to Shatner btw.

Migraine OP has said that the staff were aware. What would you expect them to do?

Well if it were that bad that people were concerned for the safety of a child I would expect for them to contact the police

All seems very judgemental by lots in here on a situation that even the op does not know the previous 1 min ,5 mins ,hour or anything about this family.
Maybe she was a bit loud so others heard oh dear not the end of the world is it.she told the girl she'd smack her,totally within the law here and the threat seemed to be enough anyway so I still dont see any abuse as yet maybe she was angry maybe she was addressing a previous issue what does it matter,what she did was to be a bit loud that in reality showed herself up more than anything else.
No matter any situation if your loud in public people look whether it be with a child or partner or just yourself,trying to guess a family's life from a 10 or so min encounter seems to put mildly rather nuts.