Abuse? What would you have done?

[Cubtrouble]

Went to museum yesterday.

In a line for film there with my child (5), there was a family a few people in front of us, mum, dad, boy and girl, boy was around 8/9, girl maybe 7 or 8.

Girl was attached to mother wrist with "lead" like a fabric strap, loop at either ends round her and mums wrist. Mother was an absolute animal, shouting loudly at this poor girl, stand still or I will smack you, get back next to me, stop this, stop moving, etc, in the line and again in the pre film briefing, "sit still, for Christ sake stop moving"
The girl complained the strap was tight and it was loosened roughly with the mother telling her off yet again. She was roughly yanked along when it was time to leave.

The behaviour was noticed by plenty of other people. It was loud and very aggressive.

I wanted to say something- staff noticed but no one did anything.

The dad was at least 6'4. He didn't utter a word. The mum was short and fat and angry.

I was obviously with my own child and on my own and I didn't think I could say anything without altercation and that would have been frightening for my own child. I was genuinely concerned it could have turned out badly for ME. So I kept quiet.

The kids for what it's worth looked clean and well cared for in nice clothes.

What would you have done???

Didn't see that again. Was obvious to staff who could have removed them from the show or told her to stop? But should they?

I've certainly displayed plenty of less than quality parenting in public. I have two children with Sen who are also capable of being badly behaved. I can do hours of calm, excellent care and then there comes that point I when still commuting home from school at 6pm where they might start deliberately winding each other up just by pulling faces or gentle touches designed to cause fights that I finally lose my shit and shout. I probably look a total twat at the time but I would be very happy for anyone to join me at the start of my day at 5am and experience first hand the daily grind of aiming to be a perfect parent though what always seems total adversity. Doesn't mean I abuse them 'behind closed doors.'

I think it's hard to judge from one snap.
You mAy not like her threatening to smack her dd, but it isn't an illegal punishment in this country whether people like it or not.
I also don't know how fair you can be considering how you've come across in your posts about the mother.

Oblomov.... where you at the museum yesterday with your kid on a lead? Are you short and fat with a lot of curly hair and a penache for whalloping your kid in public?

No OP. That wasn't me. I'm not that big on museums, never used a lead, yes I'm quite short, but not fat, no curly hair (I wish) and not a big fan of smacking.

I don't usually get involved with rows on here but to come on here & imply another user is a neglectful parent or child abuser just because you have a difference of opinion (about a situation neither of you were there for!) is a really shitty thing to do!

TatteredOwl

I said that I don't agree with smacking children and neither did I say that the mum's behaviour was fine or exemplary. I am just trying to see the whole picture.

The mum could be like Toysaurus or anyone having a difficult day.

You need to take time out if you think an acceptable response is to straight away accuse another person whom you have never met and know nothing about is a child abuser because she hasn't affirmed your own visceral conclusion about a stranger in a third hand situation.

everything JonSnowsWhore said
And 'leads' seriously.

Thanks JonSnowswhore

I was wondering if I was being a bit over-sensitive in finding that comment hurtful and unpleasant. Don't we all flagellate ourselves far too much about our parenting, and whether it's good enough or maybe that's just me?

No you weren't, it was a totally below the belt & unnecessary comment. It's fine to disagree with people & have a debate etc but why the need for an insult like that

Talkinginthedark thank you for your big post. You do, despite my clumsy original post seem to have got exactly the situation yesterday right.

To others- I'm obviously not impartial because I don't know the people do I! I could only judge on what I actually witnessed. The mothers tone of voice, almost snarling at this little girl. It was not nice to see. I don't think anyone could have ignored it.

And Rixera- I'm so sorry for you. I have nothing to say that won't get blown out of proportion on here. But I truly hope things are better for you now. X

No niceglass it was vile, it was put to simply stop the conversation because you didn't agree

Completely stand by what I said.

Maybe I'm just having an off day eh? As a human being. According to you apologists, I'm allowed one and you should probably make allowances for me

Leaving the thread now as can't be arsed engaging with some of the utter idiots on here spouting utter apologist shit

Thumbs up OP, I admire you

Thank you Owl.

Talkinginthedark- I didn't think you were having a go either. Your post was spot on.

Eek more abuse

Anyway fwiw op I can't speak for everyone else but with my first comment about me probably being seen like a crazy ranting parent, I was just putting it out there incase you thought yeah you know what maybe it was only like that.

But the fact is none of us were there to see for ourselves so none of us can judge whether something serious was going on or, if maybe you just have more patience/well behaved children so were shocked to see someone being like that? (Hope that make sense)

So I don't think everyone is necessarily disagreeing with you it's just we'll never know so are maybe trying to be a bit hopeful that this child is ok?

Thing is though Cubtrouble - what would you actually hope to achieve had you intervened?

Do you think the mother would have modified her behaviour and had a rethink as the result of the intervention of a stranger. Would intervention really have been proportionate to what you witnessed?

I am not saying that the children were being abused, but do you really think the situation merited the parents being detained while the children were taken into temporary care and an immediate SS intervention? What if the mum had all kinds of unknown sh*t going on in her life which caused her to be on a short fuse on this particular day?

I am not excusing abuse or bad behaviour, but you need to be extremely sure before you start going down the road of intervention. There's normally quite a high threshold for good reasons and that's because intervention can be even more harmful and counter-productive. If the mum does have an anger-management problem or something, then chances are it will be known about and being monitored elsewhere. But as any SW will tell you, smacking children, whatever you may think about it, is not illegal and nor is it a sign of abuse, even if you think that a smack constitutes physical abuse.

niceglass The Stately Homes thread is about people who have narcissist parents. Usually mothers.

No. The Stately Homes thread is for anyone who experienced any kind of familial abuse as a child. I know what the title is about. My point was that you and others were saying that the fact these parents were taking their children out for the day suggests that they wouldn't really be abusive. Which is clearly not true. Which you know from your own experience apart from anything else. Parents can do all those nice, normal things and still be monsters. And yet everything you've said has been to massively minimise and deny the details the OP gave. And many other pp too. I wonder why that is.

Toysaurus I don't think anyone's conflating your experience with what was being described here. This was TWO parents with their DC on a family day out, not one parent struggling with a really challenging daily grind. The fact that the father stood by and said nothing suggests that this kind of behaviour is totally normalised in this family. OP says the son's behaviour was the same as the daughter's but all the anger was directed at the daughter. That shouts scapegoat very clearly.

As others have said, most of us can tell when it's a parent having a really hard time, and when there's something more to it. The fact that people were talking about it as it happened is pretty significant; it's unusual in this country for people to do that.

Jonsnow I would like to think it was a one off. I hope it was.

I have little doubt the kids gets a smack if she and the brother were naughty, maybe the mum was really pushed to her limit but if behaviour had been bad I would have expected a bit more from the dad. We stood a few people back in line and then directly behind them in the present show, the girl got off her bench twice to do something to her shoe or pull her sock up and was yanked up by her arm, and she complained the strap was really tight- it was. The mother loosen it and said "well if you hadn't been bloody moving it wouldn't be right"
We then went in the main room so I didn't see anymore and they left before we did- I saw her pulling the strap but the girl just walked along. The boy did not have a wrist strap and didn't get in any trouble or get shouted at.

Cubtrouble glad you didn't feel got at! I do know exactly what you mean.

And niceglass no, of course you can't start down an intervention route based on something like that, but that doesn't stop it being the case that what you were witnessing was child abuse.

And that's something that's still really shit in our society, that we really don't want to acknowledge - we don't want to know how much child abuse goes on because we can't deal with it. We don't have the resources to send some amazing team out to every incident like this, to the very similar one I myself saw a while back. Even if there was some magic number you could call for ever ready social workers to come an intervene, then what? We don't have the resources to properly look after the children who are in care already, look at the fucking dreadful outcomes for children in care, never mind any more.

The one thing we can do is to stop minimising. Stop looking for ways to pretend that child abuse isn't child abuse. It's not nice to live with the knowledge that a child you saw out and about is being abused, and there's fuck all you can do about it, but denying what is happening to her and children like her only perpetuates the problem.

The Stately homes thread is so long, I haven't read even a third of it. But the point is that there is a difference between the clearly obvious type of abuse that TatteredOwl was on about that she witnessed on a daily basis and what the OP perceived that she saw going on. She referred to a wrist strap as a lead for example, which is an emotionally loaded and not necessarily accurate term. If they were all queuing for film in the dark, then maybe she couldn't see what the child was actually doing and perhaps prior to queuing up, the child had been a bit difficult.

I can't minimise behaviour or incidents that I didn't see - only the OP did, but it's fair to gently question her perception of what happened, or attempt to look at the bigger picture and put things in context. Or are we all supposed to unquestioningly accept OP's account that there definitely was child abuse going on here, and what would have been the best way to handle it.'

This passive-aggressive "why would you minimise what happened" and attempt to cast someone into an abusive light themselves is in itself abusive and irrational. It's designed to close down agreement and stop anyone else from agreeing in case they too, find themselves accused of child abuse or defending it.

I cannot minimise something that I didn't see. I don't much like the idea of a mother saying "For Christ's sake" to their child, if I'm honest. I've not said that snarling or swearing at children or smacking them is ok. Neither have I said that 'x didn't happen'. Not jumping to the conclusion that this 'short fat' woman is a child abuser, isn't the same thing as denying or minimising abuse!

Niceglass- I'm not sure what I would have hoped to have achieved if I'd said something. In my mind (which I played over a few times while I watched them waiting to go in- maybe 10 mins) I thought this would happen-

Me "hey, can you mind your language in front of my child, and calm down"

Her "find your own fucking business, she's a naughty little shot who needs a good hiding"

Her to kid "now look what you've done"
Kid cries, brother cries, my kid cries,

No one defends me in the line, all hell breaks loose and someone is asked to leave- everyone screams and shouts- no one does anything, mother comes over up in my face and asks me what my problem was etc etc and my back is literally against the wall- nowhere to run to- no escape route. She's pointing her finger at me in threatening manner and no no no.

Never at any point did I think she would hug her poor child and make it right.

She was angry, mean and aggressive. There were other people in a better position to say something, staff, couples, the dad! To say something could have put my own child at risk. I don't regret it but I do wonder. I hope he girl was ok.

You have no idea what had happened before - perhaps the child had behaved appallingly - bitten her brother etc - mum had just had enough?
The short fat comment shows what a judgemental person you are and I think you need to wind your neck in YABU.

if there are two kids and two parents why you couldn't just hold their hand?

I use a "lead" for my 3-year-old. Next time you do the shopping, or go to a museum, do the trip with one hand up above shoulder/head height as if you were holding the hand of a much taller person and see how uncomfortable it gets.

How do you know the dd was the dads op? Maybe he isn't the father so the mother is the one parenting her?
i think whatever she did you wouldn't have liked because you didn't like her, you'd already formed an opinion of her.
the language you've used throughout is horrible.

TBH, if someone had said "FCS" loudly in front of my child, regardless of anything else, have alerted the staff, being too much of a coward and rubbish at face to face confrontation. Or I think my DH would have said something. Maybe I would, I don't know.

But neither do you know that she would necessarily have been aggressive back, though I understand why you wouldn't.

I would have said something about the language, but then (while not a fan of smacking, which I feel I have to emphasise after all the insinuations about being an abuser myself) I do think that verbal abuse can cause far more long term damage than a slap. Mother sounds angry and stressed - it sounds more reactive, than necessarily meaning that the girl is a scapegoat, though it is a possibility. And the fact that she loosened the wrist-strap is encouraging. It shows she's not deliberately vicious or callous.

Sorry, my post doesn't make much sense. I meant to say that I would object to someone swearing loudly in front of the DC. And that I understand why you wouldn't confront the mother, but you don't know for sure that she would have had the extreme aggressive reaction that you were imagining.

Though you are right to intuit she would probably be on the defensive.