to think teacher and head should have intervened?

[neuroticmumof3]

My friend's ds(8) has had some issues with a child at school who has been verbally and emotionally unpleasant to him (calling him fat, saying freckles make him ugly, telling his friends not be his friends anymore). It all came to a head the other day when friend's ds used unkind words about the other child (true but unkind). my friend is fully supportive of the school disciplining her ds about his behaviour and he has also had sanctions at home as a result of his actions. The unkind behaviour from the other child has been going on for some time now and the school have been aware of it.

after my friend dropped ds off at school the day after this happened the other child's dm went into the classroom, walked up to ds, pushed her face up to his and shouted at him. The class teacher witnessed this but did nothing and said nothing. Another parent witnessed it, comforted ds who was quite shocked and distressed and told my friend. The teacher later said the incident had been unfortunate!

After shouting at ds this parent was then verbally abusive to my friend (swearing included) on school property and in front of the headteacher, who did nothing! At this stage my friend didn't know her ds had just been shouted at by this parent.
other parents and children were still going to class as well so would have witnessed and heard her shouting and swearing.

AIBU to think this behaviour should have been challenged and stopped? if another parent got up close to my child and shouted in their face i would expect the teacher to take appropriate and immediate action but is that unrealistic and unreasonable of me? I genuinely feel a bit confused as to whether i can trust the school to protect my child from unacceptable adult behaviour.

Take out the screaming

Trifle, your attitude scares me a little bit. Are you really saying that as an adult human, you don't feel any natural instinct to protect the DC in your care? If that is the case, and you genuinely would stick rigidly to what you are obliged to do, and no more, then I really hope you do not teach my DC.

why would you expect a teacher to intervene with an aggressive adult? That is far more likely to escalate the situation

What a bizarre comment. Surely we would all expect a teacher to intervene to protect a child? As Deathstare points out, there are a number of ways of intervening that wouldn't escalate anything.

Seven other children flocking around her, 2 mum's wanting to explain why little Johnny is under the weather, a TA asking where the resources are and a new child not being able to get out of their coat?

Would any teacher seriously refuse to prioritise taking action to protect a child over all of those? As soon as an adult comes up to a child and puts her face in theirs and starts shouting, that is the priority.

jacks11: of course, and it's possible that in this situation there was no risk to the teacher, but some posters don't seem to recognise that the teacher is the judge of that in the moment.

Jacks11:

As you can see from the above comment: Surely we would all expect a teacher to intervene to protect a child?

BToperator: RTFT. I would and have intervened to protect a child. But I am not and cannot be legally obliged to.

BToperator: And I said earlier in the thread, it scares ME a little bit that parents seem so misinformed about my responsibilities.

No, you're not legally obliged to - just as the paramedic on his break isn't legally obliged to attend a call where someone is having a heart attack. The majority of us put 'legally obliged' to one side in these cases though, don't we. What we can do from a legal pov and what we should do are often 1 very different things.

2

SirChenjin: I am not talking about my break, am I? At 11.05 when the bell goes for break time I am still on duty should a safeguarding issue arise. There is a difference between expecting someone to forgo a cup of tea and expecting them to risk their life. I have a child of my own. If a teacher protected her at risk of her own safety I would be down on my knees in gratitude. I would let be an entitled twat about it.

*wouldn't

You are misunderstanding. If a paramedic is asked to attend a call (while they are on their much needed break) because they are the closest to the patient having heart attack they are not legally obliged to attend- but I imagine most would because they feel a sense of moral obligation to help.

It's the same thing - a teacher does not have a legal obligation to help, but I would like to think most would from a moral POV.

What we can do from a legal pov

"Can" as well as 'could'.

If the woman was in the child's face then it suggests there was no room to stand between them. It may have been hard to move the child with the adult in the way. I have no idea of the legalities had the teacher moved the woman in a 'gentle but firm' way but I'd suggest it all becomes much more complicated no matter how good the teacher's intentions.

Oh - and paramedics face far more dangers than a shouting parent. If this parent presented such a risk to life then absolutely I would hope they would protect my child and I'm damn sure I'd be involving the police.

Surely a teachers role is to protect a child from verbal abuse from an adult.

SirChenjin: I didn't misunderstand. I understood perfectly. Attending a call rather than drinking your tea is a totally different thing to getting in the middle of a fight or standing between a child and (in the most extreme cases) a machete. You are placing a moral obligation on someone in the first example to inconvenience themselves, but in the second, to risk their own life.

Of course there are many situations where intervening wouldn't place the teacher at any particular risk, but that is for the teacher to decide.

And the reason paramedics take their breaks rather than attend urgent call-outs is, of course, that they would never get a break if they did and that would be both appallingly unfair and unsafe. But that is a debate for another day.

SirChenjin: Involving the police because someone verbally assaulted your child? Of course.

Wettunwindy posted "I think the teacher remaining calm was important here. "

But the teacher didn't "remain calm" he totally ignored it was happening! When later asked he said it was "unfortunate". This is offensive.

I would complain to the school and the governors not only about the parent screaming at the child but about the teacher.

I am shocked at the number of teachers posting here who couldn't give a flying one if adults are screaming at the children in their classes. I couldn't stand by and watch this; I would have told the parent to get out of the classroom and then immediately taken the child to the Head teacher to report the incident.

So, teachers, after you've buried your heads in the sand and ignored an adult screaming at a child whilst in your classroom what is it your responsibility to do (within the terms of your job descriptions of course)?

YogaDrone:

So, teachers, after you've buried your heads in the sand and ignored an adult screaming at a child whilst in your classroom what is it your responsibility to do (within the terms of your job descriptions of course)?*

Are you always so snide? Seeing as you obviously have no regard for my job description and you have already made up your mind what I should do, I will leave you to it, I think.

@YogaDrone

But the teacher didn't "remain calm"

Yes he did.

he totally ignored it was happening!

No, he didn't immediately intervene. It may have been for the best. We don't know from the limited information. It may have been over before he could.

I would complain to the school and the governors not only about the parent screaming at the child but about the teacher.

If you were who? A parent of another child?

The governors would tell you to follow procedure and escalate it properly. By 'complain to the school', I assume you mean the head. They would likely thank you for your concern and remind you it had nothing to do with you.

I am shocked at the number of teachers posting here who couldn't give a flying one if adults are screaming at the children in their classes.

I can't find a single example. Can you?

then immediately taken the child to the Head teacher to report the incident.

Taking the child would be stupid as you would want to have a frank discussion with an adult, not in front of a frightened child. Also, keeping the child calm and insulated from the repercussions of the incident would be important. Would you cross your fingers that the rest of the class were well behaved whilst you marched over to the head's office or would you take them all with you?

So, teachers, after you've buried your heads in the sand and ignored an adult screaming at a child whilst in your classroom what is it your responsibility to do (within the terms of your job descriptions of course)?

Ignoring your ignorance and sarcasm, I genuinely don't know in this exact situation. They have a responsibility to follow procedures in event of a fire, lock down or other emergency. They have a legal duty of care. See below:

a person with care of a child may do all that is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the child. When issues arise concerning safeguarding or promoting the welfare of children, teachers should take into account the ascertainable needs and wishes of the children as individuals, considered in the light of their ages, understanding and any risk of harm.

I do know I wouldn't expect a teacher to put themselves in harms way. They may choose to. It doesn't sound like the child was at immediate risk of harm.

I think trifle explained it fairly well before.

Wow, patronising and insulting. Well done both of you. Silver stars all round!

My replies:

"Yes he did"
Yes, you are correct. He did remain calm. So calm that he ignored it entirely (see OP - he totally ignored it was happening! )

"No, he didn't immediately intervene. It may have been for the best. We don't know from the limited information. It may have been over before he could. "
True, but again I reference the OP – “The class teacher witnessed this but did nothing and said nothing. Another parent witnessed it, comforted ds who was quite shocked and distressed and told my friend. The teacher later said the incident had been unfortunate!”

"If you were who? A parent of another child?"

Either. Or indeed random school visitor.

"I can't find a single example. Can you?"

There are several. Here is one: In replying as to whether a teacher should intervene on behalf of a student being abusing by and adult in their proximity TrifleorBust said “I am not and cannot be legally obliged to”

"The governors would tell you to follow procedure and escalate it properly. By 'complain to the school', I assume you mean the head. They would likely thank you for your concern and remind you it had nothing to do with you. "

I would, obviously, follow procedure. Seriously? Nothing to do with me? I don't accept this. If I were the witness of an assault in the street do you think the police would not accept my statement because it was "Nothing to do with me"?

"Taking the child would be stupid as you would want to have a frank discussion with an adult, not in front of a frightened child. Also, keeping the child calm and insulated from the repercussions of the incident would be important. Would you cross your fingers that the rest of the class were well behaved whilst you marched over to the head's office or would you take them all with you?"

Why stupid? I have no interest in having a frank, or otherwise, talk with this individual. I want to remove the child to a place of safety. If the TA were present I would leave the class with them. If s/he wasn't present and the adult would not leave the classroom when asked then yes, I would remove the whole class from the situation.

"Ignoring your ignorance and sarcasm, I genuinely don't know in this exact situation. They have a responsibility to follow procedures in event of a fire, lock down or other emergency. " [...]

Goodness, I nearly fell asleep reading that. It's so woolly as to be pointless as guidance. It is slightly heartening that in all of your patronising lecturing of me you admit that in this situation you don’t know what you would have done. I am neither ignorant, sarcastic or snide (as Trifle suggests). I am simply shocked, amazed and disappointed that an ADULT (whether a teacher with a duty of care or anyone else present) would happily allow another adult to abuse a child while they do nothing (again, I reference the OP). What a sad state of affairs

YogaDrone: I think the only person being rude here is you.

Where have I insulted you? You have called me "Snide" and Wet has called me ignorant. Where have I insulted you? Please reference.

I didn't say you insulted me. I said you were rude. Your dismissive comments WRT my legitimate referencing of my job description were rude. I care deeply about the children I teach and I believe I wouldn't hesitate to protect them, but the fact is that I am perfectly entitled to protect myself as well and to out my physical safety first. If I did put your child's safety before my own I would expect you to thank me, not (wrongly) say I was just doing my job. You are rude and you are entitled.

The parent wasn't brandishing a weapon or strapped to a detonator.... the teacher should have intervened without question.