to think teacher and head should have intervened?

[neuroticmumof3]

My friend's ds(8) has had some issues with a child at school who has been verbally and emotionally unpleasant to him (calling him fat, saying freckles make him ugly, telling his friends not be his friends anymore). It all came to a head the other day when friend's ds used unkind words about the other child (true but unkind). my friend is fully supportive of the school disciplining her ds about his behaviour and he has also had sanctions at home as a result of his actions. The unkind behaviour from the other child has been going on for some time now and the school have been aware of it.

after my friend dropped ds off at school the day after this happened the other child's dm went into the classroom, walked up to ds, pushed her face up to his and shouted at him. The class teacher witnessed this but did nothing and said nothing. Another parent witnessed it, comforted ds who was quite shocked and distressed and told my friend. The teacher later said the incident had been unfortunate!

After shouting at ds this parent was then verbally abusive to my friend (swearing included) on school property and in front of the headteacher, who did nothing! At this stage my friend didn't know her ds had just been shouted at by this parent.
other parents and children were still going to class as well so would have witnessed and heard her shouting and swearing.

AIBU to think this behaviour should have been challenged and stopped? if another parent got up close to my child and shouted in their face i would expect the teacher to take appropriate and immediate action but is that unrealistic and unreasonable of me? I genuinely feel a bit confused as to whether i can trust the school to protect my child from unacceptable adult behaviour.

OopsDearyMe: I don't think you understand what it means.

I'm quite concerned that the teacher didn't call the child to her, and / or confront the parent, at the very least ,with "Is there a problem?".

all of which would have been likely to escalate the incident.

I can see both sides of this.

I would have stepped in. I have in the past with a big angry man shouting and swearing in my classroom. That wasn't at a single child in particular but I still stood between him and the children. I felt that that barrier was important although in reality, I don't know what would have happened if it had become physical.

At the same time, I would never question any of my staff who hadn't done so. I would question what they had done and why but not expect them to put themselves in harms way.

We don't know how long this woman shouted for. Whilst it will still have upset the class and children: if it was over within seconds then there's nothing the teacher could reasonably have done. They shouldn't have been running across the class to tackle the woman to the ground before calling security. I was a certified doorman after Uni. One of the things we're taught is how to deescalate situations. Sometimes a hand on the shoulder can make an aggressor check themselves. Sometimes, with their adrenaline pumping, the first thing they'll do is swing for you.

I think the teacher remaining calm was important here. I think that had she and the other parent ended up shouting at each other, if the woman had become aggressive with the teacher, if the teacher had been pushed or hit, if the woman's behaviour had become worse because of the teacher's intervention... all of these possibilities suggest that perhaps dealing with the aftermath was better than leaping in.

I've often thought about what would have happened if my altercation had become physical (and the man was that angry that it could have) and I think I'd have had to resign. I'd have been the person who escalated a situation and ended up fighting with a parent in front of a class.

I do think that none of this was witnessed by the OP. We don't know what the teacher or headteacher did.

After shouting at ds this parent was then verbally abusive to my friend (swearing included) on school property and in front of the headteacher, who did nothing!

Depending on a few factors I may have done nothing. The last thing I was is to get into a shouting match with a parent in front of children or have them shouting at me whilst I smile politely. I would have ignored it, waited an hour and then banned them from the premises effective immediately.

I know teacher-bashing is a sport here but with a biased and uninformed OP, everyone's very quickly piling in to say how they'd remove their child, how it makes them glad their child doesn't attend residential trips and similar.

| wettunwIndee: Excellent post.

Bestthingever GreyMist jacks11

It is impossible to tell from the OP exactly what went on. Primarily we don't know what was shouted or how long it went on for.

This could well be case of the parent walking in shouting one sentence and walking out, or a sustained 5 minute rant.

In one case the teacher wouldn't have had time to do anything in the second the OP would have a point.

As for the ranting at the head and her friend wettunwindee has it.

Do teachers receive conflict resolution/avoidance training in the same way say frontline nhs staff do? Or does it very much depend on the individual school?

Something similar actually happened to my DD a couple of years ago. I rarely do the school run and my childminder was waiting in the playground for DD and another child, when a man of a boy in her class got very aggressive and started shouting in her face. Even when confronted by my childminder and asked to stop he continued and she physically had to put herself between him and my DD.

Transpires his child had been accusing my DD of bullying him - was actually the other way round as was subsequently proven.......however, I was so upset by the situation that I did speak to the police and the school - he ended up being cautioned, was banned from school grounds and lost his job as a teaching assistant in another school.

wettunwindee

Great post. I do think there should have been some kind of action after the event, to make it clear to the parent that it's not acceptable to behave like that at school and that they'll be banned from the premises should it happen again.

It's likely to be part of PD at some point @littleducks but it isn't a part of a typical BEd or PGCE.

I assume you're talking about parents here.

littleducks: Not in any school I have worked in. It would be helpful because dealing with conflict is a massive part of the reality of teaching.

All the posts stating that teachers have a legal responsibility to protect students from harm in all circumstances and that this is what is expected in terms of 'safeguarding' scare me a little bit. If people are sending their kids to school and on school trips with these expectations, they really are under a serious misapprehension and it needs correcting. Perhaps it would be a good idea for parents to receive a leaflet at the start of compulsory education that informs them about what 'safeguarding' actually means about what responsibilities I actually have towards their kids, so they can decide whether to home educate with the full information in front of them.

I am responsible for checking my part of the building in the event of a fire alarm; I am not obliged to burn to death or carry the children out in my arms.

I am responsible for making sure children wear the appropriate safety equipment if we are on a trip and they are, say, body boarding. I am not obliged to jump in and save them if they get into trouble.

I am responsible for discouraging violence in my classroom and enforcing the school behaviour policy. I am not obliged to get punched in the face trying to split up a fight.

I am responsible for informing the Head or SMT about any intruders on the premises. I am responsible for challenging intruders in reasonable scenarios, like when someone isn't behaving aggressively or erratically. I am not obliged to get stabbed to death.

And so on.

There is a reason why someone who stands between children and a machete is called a hero - it is a wonderful thing to do and it is beyond the call of duty.

I'm a teacher and if any adult did this to a child in my class I wouldn't hesitate to intervene. Your friend's child's teacher should have protected her child. I hope their DS is ok.

Indeed wet

Sensible post.

I'm a teacher and if any adult did this to a child in my class I wouldn't hesitate to intervene. Your friend's child's teacher should have protected her child.

to me you sound idealistic, inexperienced and lacking in training. Sorry.

I understand that Trifle- but I think there is a difference between an expectation that some sort of action being taken- such as asking the adult to stop shouting in a child's face- and fully expecting a teacher to run into a burning building/jumping in front of someone wielding a machete/diving in to stormy seas to save a drowning child.

I also think another parent having to comfort the child and then the teacher calling the incident "unfortunate" is completely unacceptable. It's minimising what was probably quite a frightening incident for the child and may makes them feel unsafe in school. Which is not acceptable. If my child attended a school where all of the above happened, I don't think I would have full confidence in their ability to provide a nurturing environment for a child.

Are you really sorry for that groundless comment?

I'm not sorry as in I am apologising, no, I'm sorry to tell someone who I am sure means well and loves the children in her care that I think she is completely wrong headed. She doesn't know what she is talking about. I'm sorry to sound rude to her when I'm sure she thinks she would do what is morally right, when what she says she would do would be morally wrong, in that it is likely to cause more harm. I'm sorry to flatly contradict someone who sounds so idealistic, but they have a total misunderstanding of the best approaches and likely outcomes of handling an aggressive parent.

Hmm - how wrong you are. Sorry.

that's your opinion, and that's fine. My opinion, from 20 years in violent schools/hostels/prisons and training from many different providers on handling aggression, the teacher and the head responded absolutely correctly to get the best and safest outcome.

Yep, that's my opinion. Fortunately my children don't go to a school where you work.

Fortunately my children don't go to a school where you work.
they might! you don't know!

I think that the main difference here is that posters are ignoring the other "duties" that the teacher has.

They have a duty to the child.
They have a duty to the other children.
They have a duty to the school.
They have a duty to other staff members.
They have a duty to their families,
and they have a duty to themselves.

This is not as simple as getting stuck in and providing an immediate response (physical or otherwise), the wrong response could end up with the child getting hurt, the other pupils getting hurt or the teacher getting hurt, or even the teacher getting on the wrong side of the law.

It is always going to be a balancing act for the teachers and TAs that are put in this position by idiotic parents.

I doubt it user

Boney - I also think that the schools and teachers have a part to play. From what the OP has said, they could have done more to deal with this situation before it got to this point - and I've never understood why some schools allow parents into the classrooms in the morning - children of this age should be able to cope on their own.

Obviously we don't know what happened behind the scenes afterwards but I hope the police were involved and I hope this parent is now banned from the classroom. I also hope the child in question was given immediate support. I suspect not though sadly- it sounds a shambles.

I hope the police were involved

Really? You think it is a public order offence worthy of their time?

Absolutely. If an adult came into what is supposed to be a safe space and started screaming and shouting at my child who had nowhere to go and no adult intervention then I would make a formal complaint to the education department, the HT and the police.

If you wouldn't then that's your look out.