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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To refuse eating or buying anything halal?

341 replies

ClaryIsTheBest · 24/01/2017 19:31

Is somebody unreasonable to refuse to buy or eat anything halal?

I'm not sure. I mean, everybody gets to choose what they want to eat (or not eat). But still...

OP posts:
titchy · 25/01/2017 09:25

Your friend sounds like a dick. If he's ever eaten supermarket chicken, he's eaten halal - 90% of chicken sold in U.K. Supermarkets has been slaughtered using halal methods.

HTH

ClaryIsTheBest · 25/01/2017 09:38

titchy

Seeing as he's a very intelligent man I assume he's aware of that.

But I guess he doesn't mind eating an un-labelled chicken that may or may not be technically halal. But he does mind supporting a halal restaurant. But that is just my guess as I said, it wasn't the place to have an in-depth discussion about his reasons.

I don't see how this makes him a dick.
Seriously. Muslims aren't dicks for their dietary choices either. And neither are Jews!

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mistressWiseGuy · 25/01/2017 09:45

Sorry if that was a response to my comment bonfire. I did not mean to offend and I did try to clarify further in my second post that I did not mean halal was any more or any less inhumane than non-halal.

Scattymere · 25/01/2017 09:52

Im veggie. If a shop proudly states its meat is halal I definitely won't buy anything/eat from there. Im well aware that the huge supermarkets which I visit also sell halal meat, but they don't put huge signs up proudly stating this as if its a positive thing, they simply need to cater for as many people as possible. While a small snack bar etc that displays a sign saying all its meat is halal does have a choice and is advertising this, and I definitely don't want to be part of it and contribute to their profits.

ClaryIsTheBest · 25/01/2017 09:56

scattymere

He probably sees it the same way.

And tbh, all the comments about supermarket food... well, yes. That simply means imo that he isn't super strict about it but draws a line at supporting a place that advertises the fact that they're catering to Muslim dietary restrictions.

Or maybe we're all wrong and he simply wants to drink alcohol? But it doesn't really anyway. Seeing as we'll be going to a vegetarian restaurant :)

OP posts:
Coralfish · 25/01/2017 10:01

If your non-Muslim friends object to Halal meat, then they are more than welcome to choose a vegi option in a Halal restaurant, just as your Muslim friends would choose a vegi option in a non-Halal restaurant.

backinthebox · 25/01/2017 10:07

A long time ago I was a lab assistant and we needed fresh cow's blood to run tests on. It was expensive and impractical to take a blood sample from a cow kept solely for that purpose so as the most junior member of staff I was packed off to the local abattoir on halal day in order that I might catch a bucket of fresh blood as a cow was being bled. I'm sorry to disappoint any frothing DM readers who believe that all halal cows are conscious when they have their throats slit - all of these had been stunned. There was no way I would have been able to catch a bucket of blood from a thrashing, throat-slitted 800kg animal!

So I calmly got my bucket of blood, put the lid on it, packed it in dry ice and a polystyrene box, hopped back on the train with it and it was all measured out into tiny test tubes and frozen for experimental use within an hour of the cow walking into the abattoir. With no fuss.

I've told this story several times to friends who have posted graphic videos from other countries on Facebook, but they would rather believe a video of unspecified origin than an eyewitness account.

Fwiw I would eat UK produced halal meat, although I obviously don't go out of my way to find it. My step-brother only eats halal meat and we just get takeaway with chicken dishes when he visits. I do have issues though with the way many caged animals are farmed in the UK, especially poultry (and this includes turkeys, and ducks as well as chickens.) Pig farming is another industry that uses very high-intensity methods of questionable nature, and Danish bacon is the worst of the lot, having opted out of many of the EU farming directives relating to pig rearing. All of this, yet when it comes to meat production it always seems to be halal killing that is the biggest issue.

Don't even get me started on vegetarian options - spraying of many crops is resulting in massive loss of insects, most importantly bees. And when the bees are gone we might as well all give up. Ask you veggie mates if their carrots were sprayed by pesticides at all if you really want to kick off a debate Grin

titchy · 25/01/2017 10:11

But he does mind supporting a halal restaurant.

As he already eats meat slaughtered in the halal way, his objections are clearly not related to animal welfare. So his objection to a halal restaurant can only be that it serves Muslims.

Which makes him a dick.

ClaryIsTheBest · 25/01/2017 10:38

Does it make him a dick?

I mean, it is his money.
I know that some (all? Idk) Sikhs refuse to eat halal and I don't think that makes them dicks.
And I do know that Jews eating kosher can't eat halal.

I don't think that dietary choices make anybody a dick, do they?

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BillSykesDog · 25/01/2017 10:42

Sikh's can't eat halal or Kosher at all (so many Sikh's have been forced unwillingly into vegetarianism). Many religious people although not strictly forbidden to eat either do not as their conscience struggles with the idea of eating food which has gone through the rituals of another religion. Just like Catholics are allowed to take CofE communion but many choose not to as it is a meaningless act which they view as a sham. Many people choose not to eat them for welfare reasons. Okay, some of the meat might have been stunned but you don't know. Would you find it acceptable to ask a vegetarian to eat something which might contain meat on the grounds 'a lot of them don't contain meat so you might as well chance it'? Many people feel that is does not provide the same level of flavour, which supporters vehemently deny turning a blind eye to the fact that you can switch on the TV any given day to find a TV chef extolling the virtues of meat in blood and maturing for flavour, neither of which you will get with halal meat. And a quick Google will spring up many Muslims who have eaten both and swear they taste very different. And y'know, some of them might choose not to eat it because they object even to indirectly supporting an ideology which on a widespread level treats women appallingly, persecutes those of other religions on a massive scale, promotes cruel and inhumane punishments, breaches human rights on a huge scale and persecuted, harasses and often murders those who choose to leave the religion. Which is not that different from boycotting Israeli/kosher goods. (And I note those who whinge about kosher not being avoided often fail to mention that there is a far more pervasive boycott of Jewish and Israeli goods which they choose to overlook). Bit of course the left wing bundle a huge and varied list of reasons into 'raaaaaaacism' (like they do about fucking everything which doesn't fit into their narrow list of acceptability).

Personally I boycott Israeli goods because I think they're behaving like a bunch of knobends at the moment particularly over settlers and violence against the Palestinians. But I also avoid halal wherever I can. For reasons which include some of the reasons above.

I have a huge objection to the lack of provision for people to make an informed choice over whether or not to eat halal or not by refusing to introduce a compulsory labelling system. And by halal becoming the default option in many places like schools and hospitals.

Now many left wingers now use the stock response of 'well if you don't want to eat it go vegetarian'. Which is massively hypocritical, because this is what Muslims were told for years and the same people demanding others go veggie were incredibly cross about this and (of course) found it dreadfully racist that Muslims should be told they had to go veggie. But apparently it's fine to tell other people the same. Because we are all equal but apparently some of us are more equal than others. And those of us who are more equal tend to be whichever group the left wing has decided is their current pet project.

It doesn't really matter if people's reasons for not eating it are religious, political, culinary or because they have a fear of things which begin with the letter 'h'. Everybody has the right to make informed choices about what they eat and a compulsory clear labelling system should be in place. This would probably also benefit Muslims as it would give them greater choice when shopping.

Basically what this boils down to is yet another subject on which the left wing have decided anybody who won't follow their precise orthodox dogma has no right to a view must be bullied and intimidated into silence by dragging out the tired old 'racist' trope that nobody apart from themselves takes seriously anymore because their exploitation and overuse of it has rendered it essentially meaningless and a bit of a joke.

Sallygoroundthemoon · 25/01/2017 11:08

I choose not to eat halal meat on religious grounds and am happy to be largely veggie. I object to my meat undergoing rituals from a religion I don't believe in. The same would apply to kosher if it were widely available.

titchy · 25/01/2017 11:11

I know that some (all? Idk) Sikhs refuse to eat halal and I don't think that makes them dicks.
And I do know that Jews eating kosher can't eat halal.

Seriously you can't see the difference? Sikhs and Jews don't eat halal on religious grounds. Your friend eats halal, but won't give a halal restaurant his money because he is intolerant of their religion.

Massive difference, and tbh if you can't see that it makes you a dick too.

ClaryIsTheBest · 25/01/2017 11:19

titchy I never said he eats halal.

I said I assume he eats it, seeing as I was told in this thread that a lot of meat is technically halal but just not labelled as halal. So, it's not like he has a choice, does he? Which is actually kind of disgusting imo.

And what's so bad with being 'intolerant to their religion'? He isn't discriminating, using slurs or anything. He simply says that he does not want to support it with his money.
Do Muslims support gay establishments? If they don't, are they intolerant of homosexuals and also dicks? And if your answer isn't yes, titchy, then you're a massive hypocrite!

and as I said, maybe I made a wrong assumption and it's not necessarily about the 'Muslim-part' but simply because he wants to drink alcohol? Idk. We didn't have and indept discussion.

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Andrewofgg · 25/01/2017 11:36

BillSykesDog what has boycotting Israeli goods got to do with it? The kosher meat sold here is not of Israeli origin. Or do you mean to say that you boycott goods from businesses owned by Jewish people? The kosher slaughterers are Jewish but the slaughterhouses are not. The wholesalers who handle kosher meat may or may not be; the retailers are although they need not be and their staff need not be; the young woman who usually serves me with my meat is Polish and wears a crucifix.

So Israeli goods are a red (kosher) herring.

The HSA speaks from both sides of its mouth. Its literature claims to respect different religious beliefs but wants to impose stunning - and those positions are inconsistent. If you respect religious differences you do not want to forbid kosher slaughter and vice versa.

People probably think of stunning as being similar to anaesthesia - it is not.

lelapaletute · 25/01/2017 11:41

Perfectly reasonable to buy and eat whatever you like for whatever reason you wish! Just as long as you don't try and foist your views on other people :)

BillSykesDog · 25/01/2017 12:05

BillSykesDog what has boycotting Israeli goods got to do with it?

Sigh. Did you not bother reading the rest of my post. Let me repaste it again so you can make the effort this time.

And y'know, some of them might choose not to eat [halal] because they object even to indirectly supporting an ideology which on a widespread level treats women appallingly, persecutes those of other religions on a massive scale, promotes cruel and inhumane punishments, breaches human rights on a huge scale and persecutes, harasses and often murders those who choose to leave the religion. Which is not that different from boycotting Israeli/kosher goods. (And I note those who whinge about kosher not being avoided often fail to mention that there is a far more pervasive boycott of Jewish and Israeli goods which they choose to overlook)

Is that clear enough for you? In a nutshell some people prefer not to buy goods associated with an ideology which has an extremely strong tendency to breach human rights, especially those of women and non-believers, in the most horrific and violent ways.

BillSykesDog · 25/01/2017 12:07

Perfectly reasonable to buy and eat whatever you like for whatever reason you wish! Just as long as you don't try and foist your views on other people

Which is why halal should be labelled. Because currently the only thing which is being foisted on anybody is, er, halal.

ClaryIsTheBest · 25/01/2017 12:34

Which is why halal should be labelled. Because currently the only thing which is being foisted on anybody is, er, halal.

I agree. The fact that a lot of unlabelled meat is actually halal? That's just not right imo.

I mean, we only buy organic meat, so yeah... but still.

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NotCitrus · 25/01/2017 12:46

At least this debate got onto page 2 before people started assuming halal=always non-stunned and assumed to be cruel, which is progress...

FWIW in the slaughterhouses I've been in, you can hardly hear the prayer tape (was a tape in the only one I noticed, presumbly because there's no reason to upgrade), as shifting tonnes of cow, live or dead, is a noisy business. I think every slaughterhouse I went round had Radio 1 playing. Probably because they tend to be in rural areas with dodgy radio reception.

Cheshire Slaughterhouses for chickens tend to just do chickens. Others may do a combination of pigs, sheep and cows, but not so many do cows as they need larger hoists and machinery and captive bolt shooting things. It's hard to kill cows on an industrial scale without stunning, so the small amount of unstunned cow slaughter in this country tends to be the sort of individual-attention small business that people who want to improve livestock welfare at slaughter would actually like to see.

Stunning is more to stop the animal struggling rather than be extra humane - a bolt to the head is going to end life in seconds no matter what. Nowadays we know more about animal psychology and the animals calmly wait in line outside the slaughterhouse, just like for milking, get taken inside one by one, and are unaware of what is happening. A slit to the throat can induce unconsciousness about as rapidly but is messy and sounds uncivilised. Often people lobby for things they think sound better for animal happiness but actually aren't when you consider what actually makes them stressed or relaxed.

The only way to actually avoid eating meat that is halal would be to go to a Sikh-run restaurant or to eat pork.

DesolateWaist · 25/01/2017 12:53

If halal just means permitted, then why do they need to mark it all over meat. Surely Muslims know what food is and isn't allowed to be consumed. I don't see halal written all over a pack of nuts, yoghurts or a box of eggs. Strange that.

You've clearly never looked hard enough. As I said up thread, most vegi food is marked as Halal and kosher.

PickAChew · 25/01/2017 12:53

If you're genuinely going out with a group of people whose religion demands mutually exclusive rituals around animal slaughter, then you go to a veggie restaurant, which can usually accommodate anyone in some way or another. If you can't eat veggie for one meal out, then you're probably too stubborn to be worth dining with.

Clandestino · 25/01/2017 12:57

See also why it's ridiculous to say you aren't allowed to make personal ethical choices about the food you consume unless you're prepared to be a vegan.

Most of the vegan recipes I've seen contain ingredients which have to be sourced from warmer countries and are not indigenous to our corners of the world. That is my ethical issue and therefore I see no reason to be vegan. No, you don't eat animal produce. Yet you eat food that had to travel a very high mileage to get to you.

titchy · 25/01/2017 13:50

That's just not right imo

Why isn't it right? All it means is that there's a cd playing in the background. Nothing to do with welfare whatsoever.

And restaurants that serve halal usually also serve alcohol, so you can't even use that excuse.

Andrewofgg · 25/01/2017 14:10

BillSykesDog I read your entire post. It was you who said you boycott Israeli goods and I merely remarked that that has nothing to do with the issue of halal or kosher meat; which it hasn't because there is no Israeli meat on the British market.

There are lots of other Israeli goods, mostly pharmaceuticals, and I wish you long life and good health because you may well be glad of those pharmaceuticals at some point!

BillSykesDog · 25/01/2017 14:34

Okay Andrew, let me explain in simple terms. Some people (myself included) choose to boycott Israeli goods because they do not wish to even tacitly support a regime or ideology which is inflicting unnecessary suffering on the Palestinians and acts in a deliberately provocative manner.

Some people choose not to eat Halal food because they do not wish to even tacitly support an ideology which in many places acts in a deliberately provocative manner, persecutes those of different religions and oppresses women.

Yet many of those who enthusiastically advocate the former are absolutely horrified by the latter.

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