AIBU To insist on a second child

[Yellowpear]

Dd is 6. I have wanted DC2 for four years now but DH has not been so keen. He says he hypothetically wouldn't mind but first he wanted to buy a house, then it was a career change, then our wedding. I had a long chat with him before the wedding explaining how important it was to me that we try for a baby this year (because he bloody said we should!). Dd is getting older and I don't want to wait any longer. He agreed but after the wedding changed his mind and said 'in the new year'. It's now the new year and he is avoiding me, coming to bed at a different time and our sex life has dwindled to almost nill. He initiated it this morning, lasted all of 15 seconds and then withdrew at the vital moment.
I feel cheated. If he had been honest and said no more DC four years ago I could have decided to live with it or left him. Before dd we had agreed on 2 children so none of this was a surprise to him. I think he's misled me and don't know what to say when we discuss this (fight) later. I want him to be honest with me but he keeps on saying we will try 'soon'
I feel used and irrationally humiliated about what happend this morning. AIBU to not have sex with him at all until he gives me an honest answer about ttc.

Maybe having the first child has put him off having another?

Then he should have made that clear to OP many years ago rather than stringing her along and telling her that they would have a child after getting married.

Do keep to the point,this isn't about infidelity
The human condition,all its prevarication,decisions,relationships.fascinating stuff
As is notion of how one executes decisions,and impact upon self and others

Oh yeah, of course, I don't dispute he should have just come clean. I'm just trying to think of reasons he may be acting this way.

How does he cope with the child you have or do you think he is struggling/not enjoying family life but is too embarrassed to admit it?

We haven't spoken yet, I'm a coward who doesn't want to have this conversation because a) I expect that all hopes of a future baby will be dashed (which feels like a punch) and b) whilst I think it's unlikely I will LTB this could well do lasting damage to my marriage.

To answer some earlier questions:
I'm still youngish but am aware that I have passed my peak fertility and so feel time is slipping past me

We have no wider marriage problems (he is an excellent parent to dd and contributes well to our family)

Dd was a tricky baby and he found it tough. I can understand why he may be potentially scared about having number 2 but he has never articulated these fears to me despite me giving him lots of opertunity to do so.

I wouldn't have married him if there was no hope of dc2. We had this conversation when we got engaged and again in the 2 years before the wedding. I have been honest throughout and have tried very hard not to pressure him whilst being honest about my feelings.

Worst case scenario is that he tries to put another 'deadline' on this. I cannot live with another 6 months of saving and planning and hoping only for my it all to be dashed again.

This is bloody hard.

Do keep to the point,this isn't about infidelity

I am keeping to the point which is that just because something is legal and therefore you are "entitled" to do something within a marriage it doesn't mean that it is reasonable or that the spouse should put up with.

and of course he's entitled to change his mind. the OP is also entitled to change her mind about wanting to spend the rest of her life with him - but in order to do that, she needs the full facts. If he doesn't want a 2nd DC, he owes it to the OP to tell her.

If he knew he was lying to her when he said "after we buy a house" "after I've changed jobs" "after we've got married" "after the New Year", then what else will he lie to her about?

It depends OP. DH and I are in the same situation, except I'm the one who doesn't want any more.

I have told DH this. Actually said the words. But he hasn't listened. Hasn't heard the words, says I can't say that, that I'll change my mind, that we can't talk in absolutes, that we need to talk about it next month/ year/ decade/ after we've been on holiday/ bought a house. He told me not to draw a line under it.

I told him to leave me, to find someone else or to get over it. He said 'just don't keep telling me it's a definite no'. And when I did he'd get upset, angry and we'd go round again.

And so I nod, I murmer, I ah-ha. But I know, we will never have another.

If you have refused to listen to him, to really listen, then you need to take a look at yourself and what you really want. And if it's another child, accept it won't be with him and move on.

X post OP - if he puts another deadline in, you must know by now that he's just stalling and there will never be a 2nd DC.

Once you have that fact and you know where you stand, you can decide if you want to stay in the marriage with the understanding (even if he's too much of a coward to say it) that there's not going to be another child.

What about the outlandish suggestions here,such as leave him. Have sperm donor?
I'd suggest a cards on table discussion with him,to enable it both deciding what to do
You say He's a good dad,you must know reading mn there are some bad uns out there
Have the talk soon,next few days.dont accumulate time and resentment

What about the outlandish suggestions here,such as leave him.

You yourself have suggested that as an option. Regardless, I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for OP to leave if she feels that he has broken his promises and strung her along.

Actually,no.i said as I saw it what the 3 choices were.
i didn't actually recommend she leave him
Re-read my post I also said she could stay
To add balance, I explored the potential reality of the sperm donor option
And potential reality of divorce

Wow. Leaving your DH, go through a divorce, court to agree custody, move while you hear your clock ticking while looking for a suitable sperm donor to have your hypothetical second child. Wonder where you see your existing child in the equation? From what you're saying it looks like she is totally irrelevant and you have very little consideration for her because she doesn't come with a younger sibling which devalues her existence.
Have you spent a fleeting second considering her well-being or is she not important at all?

Actually,no.i said as I saw it what the 3 choices were.
i didn't actually recommend she leave him

Therefore, you suggested it as an option.. The fact that you gave two other options is not relevant.

Yes Clandestino, the OP thinks her child is irrelevant. That's why she wants another so badly - so she can hate two children!

@YellowPear

I've always been puzzled how some women can withstand being with men such as your partner and long-term. I know you call him caring etc but first the fact you had to cajole him into marriage over 10 years, and that he has "not once pushed the relationship forward." I was with a man like that in the past and found that behaviour so humiliating and degrading, even though I loved him SO much I couldn't stand living to his schedule and always feeling like not being good enough.

But kudos to you for being so patient and keeping your emotions in check all this time. Your self esteem must be stronger than mine to accept his behaviour without feeling less-than.

I know you don't want to leave him and I'm sure he has many great traits but from what you said I find him really unlikable and would suggest you consider things. Do you feel like pushing this relationship forward forever?

And the occurrence this morning I'm sorry but I found it absolutely disgusting - as if he just used you to release some tension, pulled out even though he is aware of what you want and need, and carried on about his day without a worry - clearly shows he is highly deceptive in his behaviours (says one thing does another), and thinks mostly of himself.

I have a bit of a problem with lack of sex with my partner but heaving read this made me feel better - I thought at least he doesn't use me just to unload into.

Sorry for being so brutal but reading about this man of yours just made me so annoyed.

No,a selection of various choices is not an instruction
They're all equally weighted,so actually I didn't recommend she leave him
Potential choices, equally presented.

Silver, there's a huge difference between irrelevance and hate. All I see is Op's preoccupation with herself but she's never mentioned whether she even considered her first child, it's like it's not important because her only interest is the child that doesn't exist.

The OP has said she's not leaving him which has changed my mind on this. If she felt so little for him she was prepared to chuck in the marriage and family for him I would actually say he was probably wise not to have another baby with someone so uncommitted to him. Because who knows what else they would decide to dump them for if they didn't get their own way. But the OP is fully committed which makes a big difference.

OP, have you actually communicated all this to him as you have written it here? I think that is the first step.

It seems to me like the problem is that he is not ready for a second baby right now but isn't ruling it out for the future. But because you're putting him under pressure he's giving you deadlines even though he can't know when he will feel ready. And then the deadline comes around and he still doesn't feel ready so he fudges it.

No matter what he has promised he still has every right to change his mind or want to delay until he is ready. I hate this MN idea that women have complete autonomy over whether to reproduce or not. But men have to comply with their partners wishes.

I think OP that you will have to accept it if his position is that he's not ready right now and he can't put a specific date on when he will be ready.

As an aside, I suspect that if you eased off the pressure it actually might make him more inclined to go ahead. As someone who's been through fertility treatment I can tell you that a lot of men find it very difficult to be reduced to feeling like a sperm donor or an incidental inconvenience necessary for their partners desire for another baby. Withholding sex would be a terrible idea as it would probably drive him further into being unwilling as he would feel like he was being pressured and blackmailed and forced into it rather than being an equal parent allowed to make decisions over it together rather than being pushed around and bullied into it.

Talk to him and tell him what you've told us here. And perhaps consider taking a year removing the pressure and enjoying the family that you do have before broaching the subject again. You said you are youngish so I really do think that you are way, way overreacting in terms of urgency. Just chill out a bit, that will probably make it happen much faster than pressure and demands.

as if he just used you to release some tension, pulled out even though he is aware of what you want and need

So if a man wants a baby and a woman doesn't then she is obliged to stop taking the pill and let him come inside her because otherwise she will just be using him for sex? What a crock of shit, if he doesn't feel ready for a baby at the moment he is entitled to use forms of contraception including withdrawal. And presumably the OP wanted to have sex with him anyway? Because if her only motive was to get pregnant despite knowing his doubts I would question who was being used.

@Bill...

All well and good and I completely get what you are saying but the key thing is he is leading OP to believe he does want a child, as if they don't have to or need to use contraception (perhaps that's why she's off it - otherwise why would he feel the need to pull out? ) then he proceeds to have sex with her and gets out before the finale.

It's nothing to do with him having to compromise his needs for her or what not it is just about basic honesty. He doesn't want to be honest with her for the fear of rocking the boat / losing her / whatever yet he is fine enjoying her / the perks of marriage. Just sounds iffy to me, doesn't sit well with my moral code.

@Bill...

... so to go with your metaphor OPs situation is equivalent to:

A man wanting a child and woman that doesn't - she tells him she does though and that she is off the pill. The man strives to have loads of sex to inseminate her. Yet the woman is quietly popping pills each morning unbeknownst to him.

Do you reckon that would be fair?

But we don't know that he definitively doesn't want a child. He probably just doesn't feel ready right now but because the OP is pressuring him for specific dates he's giving them with no idea of whether he'll feel ready then. And if he doesn't he has every right to change his mind. And I don't think it's reasonable to expect that because of a vague mention of 'in the New Year' the OP should expect sex from the 1st of Jan without contraception with no further discussion to confirm it all. Because he has every right to change his mind and sex for the purpose of procreation shouldn't take place without the explicit permission of both partners. Even if he changes his mind literally just before the moment he comes he has every right to do so.

I hate this MN idea that if a woman gets pregnant with a baby the father doesn't want (even if she lied about being on contraception) that's his fault for not taking control of his own fertility. But as soon as a woman wants a baby he's supposed to hand it over no questions asked.

MN in general has a terrible attitude towards reproductive rights between the sexes. Of course women should have complete control of their fertility and be able to change their minds even after conception. But men aren't allowed to change their minds or have second thoughts. It's so hypocritical.

And I do think if a woman posted that her partner was pressuring her into having a second child before she was ready because they'd pressured her into a deadline and they were now saying she'd broken a promise she'd be told to LTB. She certainly wouldn't be told because she'd been pressured into giving a deadline she should just STFU and let him impregnate her.

But we have spoken about it since Jan 1st. We spoke about it last week. And it's been four years of me trying not to pressure him in to anything. I think four years is long enough to either decide no or commit to yes. Even if that's not entirely fair, him saying yes 5 days ago, then avoiding all contact with me before having sex with me and pulling out with NO prior discussion that this was his intention feels damn unreasonable.

A man wanting a child and woman that doesn't - she tells him she does though and that she is off the pill. The man strives to have loads of sex to inseminate her. Yet the woman is quietly popping pills each morning unbeknownst to him.

I would say that a more equivalent situation would be a man who wants a baby right now and a woman who does want a baby but isn't ready quite yet and doesn't know when she will be but is badgered into giving an arbitrary date despite the fact she has no idea whether or not she will feel ready by that date. I would say if that date came around and her partner expected her just to come off the pill with no further discussion despite the fact she still didn't feel ready it would be perfectly reasonable for her to continue taking the pill. And her partner would be bang out of order to try and pressure her to stop because 'you promised' when they'd badgered her into making a promise she couldn't possibly be able to know if she'd keep or not in the first place.

Neither of them is acting like a happy couple,.ttc.its all quite fraught
Folk ttc usually are discussing finances,practicalities,impact on other dc,dates,names
They're doing none of that.suggests they're not ttc,and not communicating

Essentially they need to have cards on table discussion