This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

These late transitioning males have a very definite sexual motive to their transition. Five minutes on a keyboard googling autogynephilia shows it for what it is

Have you met many late transitioning transwomen in RL? Or have you just spent time on Google?

Didn't see that bit Jellyfrizz - thanks for pointing it out.

I still don't think it's a cause for concern. If a man who is attracted to females realises he was born in the wrong body and therefore identifies as female and so for all intents and purposes is a lesbian - does that cause an issue? No. There are loads of Guide Leaders who are lesbians doesn't make them a predator I don't think so, there are stringent safeguards in place to protect children from harm.

I'm all our brownies and guide trips the leaders always slept seperate the children anyway.
20 years ago my girl guiding unit had "shock horror" 2 assistants that went round different units that were a lesbian couple. Didn't even notice realise/anything/think about it until I was at university and something twigged and then I was proud that the unit was so inclusive back then. Shows that children are just accepting and wouldn't think twice, even ones becoming teenagers.

Statistically late transitioning males are attracted to women and retain their genitalia

Have you got any data for that fact?

As a current adult leader for rainbows, adults and girls always have separate sleeping and bathroom facilities.

Men are allowed currently to become a unit helper and they are dbs and trained like everyone else but they also have separate facilities from both the female adults and girls.

Have you got any data for that fact

I only ask because coming out with statements about people as being sexual motivated and retaining their genitalia should really be backed up with evidence.

It's a pervert's dream come true!

"amispartacus Thu 19-Jan-17 10:44:44

These late transitioning males have a very definite sexual motive to their transition. Five minutes on a keyboard googling autogynephilia shows it for what it is

Have you met many late transitioning transwomen in RL? Or have you just spent time on Google?"

My friend is going the other way (female to male) at the age of 42. At school she was a lesbian, then straight, then bi and now identifies as male and is attracted to women. Obviously it's not the same for all people, but it's often not a sexual motive at all, it's all about being comfortable in their own skin. The very message which GG underpins.

Maybe Girl Guiding needs to merge with the Scouts to be a sex/gender neutral organisation that pursues a range of activities although I'm not sure how they'll address how to safely play sports like rugby where there could be a huge difference in body weight between players anyway whether male/female.

There are also plenty of private golf clubs that do not allow full and equal access to women, so maybe a load of female golfers need to stand up and state that they identify as men and demand equal access to all areas of the club and tee off times?

I'm wary about people who make massive statements about groups of people.

There seems to be 2 sorts of trans people - those who don't feel comfortable in their body and those who have gender issues. People may transition late for many reasons - family issues, suppressing it, having been brought up in an era where it was hard to come out. They may now feel safe to come out and to undergo HRT and surgery.

Then there are those who are the cross dressers, The ones who won't have HRT or surgery.

People on here do make such sweeping statements about others. That can be dangerous.

vplum
Your friend just sounds really confused and it is very worrying to see radical changes in public policy on the basis of such confusion.

Do you think GG is 'part of the problem' as it reinforces differences?

Perhaps. I think it's a little like children who need extra support in class being taken out for 1-1 help, it may be the best way for them to progress but it can mark them out as different.

That may not be the best analogy, my point is that GG is supposed to empower girls and is necessary because the world we live in treats females differently to males. But by pulling them out into a separate group for extra support does mark them as different.

The reason some posters are chilled out about men identifying as women is entirely understandable. But you have to separate the layers that now belong to transgenderism.

It has gone way beyond wanting to be inclusive. It is reinforcing gender stereotypes, it is harmful to genuine trans-people as the politicising of the ideology has polarised opinion, making life very difficult for them, it is harmful to young gender nonconforming children. It is allowing a whole sub section of transwomen who are predatory, access to women and girls.

I'm not surprised that many people aren't aware of autogynephilia, as historically it has been used to discredit trans-women and is constantly renamed to provide distance. However the Internet is permanent and open to all, and it's easy to see it is highly prevalent in late transitioning males.

transgenderreality.com/tag/autogynephilia/

The link above was originally set up to help the parents of gender nonconforming children identifying as trans. The information they provide is lifted verbatim. If you know transwomen in real life who are not autogynephiles I can understand this will seem completely different. Because it is completely different. However it is now included under the trans-umbrella.

Ray Blanchard (who was on Newsnight last week) was the original scientist who produced the studies.

I am at the OP.

I had always thought (I guess along with many of you) that GG was a single sex organisation, a safe space for young females.

I cannot believe that it is now segregated by gender, it goes against all the good feminist beliefs GG used to have

And this is the nub of the problem, it is not about whether or not MtT are predatory, or whether transpeople in GG puts people.at risk, it is about the complete erasure of women.as a sex.

it is about the complete erasure of women.as a sex.

Hyperbole at its finest [head shake]

However the Internet is permanent and open to all, and it's easy to see it is highly prevalent in late transitioning males

So you've not got any actual studies then?

Milktwosugars

Male/female are SEX. Applies throughout nature, usually defined by belonging to the class that bear young and produce ova that are fertilised by male gametes, or belonging to the class that produces smallet male gametes that fertilise ova. Sex can not be changed in humans.

Man/woman is also SEX, simply means Adult human of one sex or the other.

GENDER is a belief that there is another, mental state of being which is shared with (almost) all individuals of a sex. Like a hive mind or group identity.
so the humans who have ovaries ALSO have a matching identity with each other. And this group personality is so apparent, so prevalent and so easily identifiable amongst the group (just like the fact they all have the same chromosomes or ovaries) that it makes sense to call it the 'female identity'. It's so hardwired and exists in almost every person with XX chromosomes and ovaries you see, so that's why it can be called the 'female identity'. If the people with XX chromosomes and ovaries etc all had different identities and personality traits it wouldn't make sense to describe a singular 'female identity'. You'd be left with the conclusion that females share the same type of body, yes, but are otherwise individuals with unique personalities, aptitudes and abilities.
You wouldn't be able to differentiate this group female identity from the 'male identity' either.
The group female identity is characterised by them all sharing the following personality traits, aptitudes, beliefs and abilities ..........
..........
..........
..........
..........
(This is where someone else who actually believes in a group female gender identity is going to have to help me out by helpfully supplying a list of characteristics that the people-with-ovaries share)

However the Internet is permanent and open to all, and it's easy to see it is highly prevalent in late transitioning males

You've just got some screenshots of people who get sexually aroused - and you've used that to say it's very common?

That's not evidence. That's selective screenshots. You wouldn't take selective screenshots from MN and use it to label the views of women in general. Unless you were the DM and had an agenda.

What (apart from the sex-mixing) is the big difference between guides and scouts now. Don't they both have pretty much the same activities?

This makes me want to start a new group, just for females. I'm going to call it mini golf or something, considering Golf clubs can be exclusively male.

Perhaps Wilderness Women, or Women of the World. We will talk about and equip girls with the tools to exist as women....

It will include:

How to spot an adams apple.
How to block dick pics
How to recognise global oppression of women through our biology
How to say no
How not to appease
How not to be polite
How to be assertive
How to recognise when you are being coerced.

This new concept will be a perfect antidote to both GG and the WI, both now infiltrated by men and boys.

A trans person will be undergoing hormone replacement therapy, they may well have had surgery to remove certain appendages

You have no guarantee of that at all.

This is an explanation of Ray Blanchard's theory including the criticisms. The criticism was largely whether it was confined to heterosexual transwomen or whether homosexual transwomen also had it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard's_transsexualism_typology#Autogynephilia_and_autoandrophilia

The gay community (men and women) seem to be a lot more clued up on the darker areas of transgenderism. On sites like datalounge (gay men), knowledge of autogynephilia is just a gimmee. Likewise lesbians.

I've probably spent too much time checking this all out and assume people know things. It only really pricked my interest 2 years ago after the IOC published guidelines allowing men who identify as women to compete against natal born women. I thought it sounded rather unfair. So I started looking at it. And one of the first aspects that shocked me was autogynephilia. I googled' how many transwomen have autogyenphilia' and this was from the first 5 websites, verbatim.

'...it's the humiliation part of being a woman that I like'.

'...forced feminization, mysogyny and humiliation...looking at porn of women and imagining them as victims. That was my main mode of fantasy'.

'It was really a humiliation fetish...like how embarrassing it would be to be a woman and do girly things'.

'..we all know transsexuals who read up on what psychiatrists want to hear'

'If the psychiatrists thought for one second that we were getting turned on by silk panties, our transition plans could be pushed back'.

'...some non-trans women get turned on by their bodies and clothes...the feel of silk, the sheer negligee, a tight skirt showing off their ass, the smell of a leather jacket,thigh-high boots, a riding crop. The self love makes you feel validated...it's acceptable for real women to do this, it's often encouraged'.

'...for the record everything that can be packed into that non-medical description that has been called "AGP" is the same thing that natal born women experience. Every tiny bit of it'.

'First of all there is no such thing as AGP. AGP is a fairly unsupportable diagnosis to try and deny the existence of lesbian transwomen'

('lesbian transwomen': people born male who are sexually attracted to women, who then transition and remain sexually attracted to women usually with genitalia intact).

I asked a transwomen on here how I can distinguish between a genuine transperson and one with AGP. She said you can't (adding that she didn't want anyone perving on her in the bathroom any more than I did).

If transactivists hadn't insisted on making this political, genuine transpeople would have been left in peace as they always have.

I really don't see what is the problem with their statement, or what other way they could have solved the problem. They can't say trans people can't join as that would be illegal.

If you child joins guides, you will get to know who the leaders and other children are. If you have any worries about any of them, don't send your child on the residential trip (probably only happens once a year or not at all in many units), or withdraw them altogether. There could be many reasons you don't like the leaders that are unrelated to child abuse - I used to think guiding attracted bullying bossy old women as leaders when I was a guide myself. It's not as if you are forced to send your child to a trip just because they have joined guides. Some common sense is lacking in many posters on this thread.

Anyway safeguarding is strong in guides so there's a very minimal risk that anything could ever happen.

As for all this crap about 'all female spaces' - I think you are getting a bit carried away now. You can't choose who joins these organisations. If you want control over who your child mixes with you will have to keep them home and arrange stuff yourself.

Hey ami, where is your evidence that this specific subset of biological men are less violent or tend to commit sexual crimes less than any other biological men? You do have some, I'm assuming?

Where is your evidence that all people calling themselves transwomen are women?

Shall we get rid of sex segregation altogether? If not, why not?

As for autogynephilia, read Blanchard. There are not going to be many comprehensive "studies" as the category of "transgender" is so ridiculously vague as to be practically meaningless. Anyone can say they are. In fact maybe we should all do just that.