This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

Bibblewanda: But they NOT men according to the law, the medical profession and their own testimony. It isn't a fact. It is your belief that they should be defined by sex, and the belief of many others that they should defined by gender. You may not like it but it is the reality so suck it up.

Your children are in no more danger than they are if they go to cubs/scouts.

I agree with this though.

The let toys be toys movement aims to let toys be toys rather than reinforce gender differences - so if a boy likes pink kitchens, fine, it does not make him a girl.

Does GG reinforce differences - by saying it's only for girls - so if a boy feels comfortable and likes being / doing things that he sees GG doing but is told "it's only for girls" - what message will he get? Will he associate himself with being a girl?

On the one hand, a female space is great because it 'lets girls be girls' without boys being there.

But OTOH, it might well reinforce the idea that girls and boys are different and that might well reinforce the idea in a boy's head that he is a girl if he relates to the GG.

"I can understand why some of you are concerned, it's fear of the unknown and worry that something will happen to your kids, but try to educate yourself about what it all means and then base your arguments on fact rather than fear."

And nope. The opposite actually. I used to be completely and blindly supportive of all things trans related. I looked at a woman i know in disgust at her bigoted transphobia when she had concerns about the rights the TG in her teenage daughters class might claim.

It's only after actually becoming more aware of trans issues, ideology, agenda etc that i've become more gender and trans ideology critical.

jellyfrizz - OK, I should have put traditionally female interests. My mistake.

Does GG reinforce differences - by saying it's only for girls - so if a boy feels comfortable and likes being / doing things that he sees GG doing but is told "it's only for girls" - what message will he get? Will he associate himself with being a girl?

In an ideal world people could present how they wished without facing any kind of discrimination and there would be no need for female only groups to 'empower girls'. Sadly we are not at that point yet.

It's only after actually becoming more aware of trans issues, ideology, agenda etc that i've become more gender and trans ideology critical

When you see a transwoman, what do you think?

"So if an 11yo girl starts her period, and feels uncomfortable asking for help from a guide leader who is biologically male, you would tell her to get over herself? shock"

No, she goes to one of the other leaders. A trans person will be undergoing hormone replacement therapy, they may well have had surgery to remove certain appendages - it's not a man in drag.

corythatwas but these are not men! They are women now. So presumably allowed to use female toilets and showers, because if not, that would be discriminatory. So a bit different from men, who would not be allowed to go in the female shower block.

Actually a lot of the medical profession does not agree they are really women. It's been proven, scientifically, that there is no difference between male and female brains. None. It's just those who state this get vilified as transphobic.

And "by their own admission" means diddly squat. I can say I identify as a 6ft2 blonde weighing 8st all I want but that doesn't mean it's true.

Sadly we are not at that point yet

Do you think GG is 'part of the problem' as it reinforces differences? IYSWIM?

And all they have to do to be treated like women by the GGs, is to say they are women now. Nothing more than that.

"I really don't understand how people cannot see this happening. Whether you think men are predatory or not. Predatory men go out of their way, taking extraordinary risks, to pursue their victims. They risk prison every time. If people think that they won't merely don a dress, they are naive. "

I'd like to that's nonsense but predatory men (and women to a much lesser degree) infiltrate many places that gives them easier access to their victims.

Schools, sports clubs, religious groups, childrens clubs, care institutions like children's homes etc.

OK, I should have put traditionally female interests.

But GG is all about giving girls a chance to do the things they wouldn't normally be encouraged to do

"We won't tell them an activity is 'for boys'. Our girls get to score tries at rugby, go bouldering or simply play the games that they enjoy most." (from the GG website).

So, the opposite to 'traditionally female interests' really.

Bibblewanda: There may be debate but the medical profession in general recognises the condition and therapy. That's why the therapy is available.

I'm getting confused with sex/gender.

Is "man" sex, "male" gender? Likewise "woman" sex, "female" gender?

"When you see a transwoman, what do you think?"

I see a confused, possibly disturbed, delusional male. Depends on wheter theyvinsist

We won't tell them an activity is 'for boys'. Our girls get to score tries at rugby, go bouldering or simply play the games that they enjoy most

No one should say anything is for boys or girls. But does GG tell boys that GG is for girls simply by it being an all girls club?

About 80% of transwomen don't have genital surgery. They may or may not be taking hormones. All that's required is to say you identify as a member of the opposite sex.

Never finished.

Depends on whether they insist they are female, are just like real women, their penis is female etc.

A trans person will be undergoing hormone replacement therapy, they may well have had surgery to remove certain appendages - it's not a man in drag.

Nope. Perhaps but not necessarily. They just have to say they feel like a woman.

From the GG policy above:

As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition.

jellyfrizz - in that case boys who are interested in traditionally female interests won't be interested in joining and this situation will never arise. So it doesn't really matter what the rules and policies say because it won't happen.

And we also need to separate out the children who identifiy as trans and late transitioning adults.

Statistically late transitioning males are attracted to women and retain their genitalia. A massive majority of them have autogynephilia. They are what used to be your bog standard cross dressers. They have jumped on the trans-bandwagon and are indistinguishable from genuine transwomen (who are often not attracted to women and who are called truscum - nice).

These late transitioning males have a very definite sexual motive to their transition. It is irrefutable. Five minutes on a keyboard googling autogynephilia shows it for what it is.

Are all trans-people predatory? No. Self evidently they are not. Are there many people identifying as trans-who have a highly dubious sexual motive. Yes. Very definitely.

And all they have to do to be treated like women by the GGs, is to say they are women now. Nothing more than that

A trans person will be undergoing hormone replacement therapy, they may well have had surgery to remove certain appendages - it's not a man in drag

Both these statements cannot be true and I think a lot of the argument stems on where between 'man in a dress' and 'had gender reassignment surgery' that a transwoman actually being a woman lies.

I think it has to be something more than a man announcing that he identifies as a woman and then expecting to be treated like a woman, use women's changing rooms etc.

So basically female people are losing their right to set boundaries and to be together without males present. I find that terrifying.