This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

Added to which, MN is one of the only places you can discuss this (relatively) freely.

And if the CPS guidelines go through, we won't be able to.

It will be considered hate-crime, to say that you don't believe a man can become a woman just because he says he's one, if a transgender person is there and feels harassed by you saying that.

This shit is real.

Basil first up, 'there was a case' with no evidence to support it, blaming this on the 'mainstream media'. Because the Daily Heil is sooo supportive of trans kids and in hock to the trans lobby? What is your source if not the dreaded MSM? And more importantly, this story is totally believable to me anyway, because similar things happened in the changing room at my all girls secondary school. Girls exposing themselves, trying to snatch away one anothers clothes, dancing sexy, making offcolour remarks, pinching each others tits. I used to HATE it, and begged off PE or shut myself in a cubicle whenever I could (I was quite backward sexually compared to my peers and rather sensitive). There were a lot of hormones and boundary testing and yes dubious media exposure flying around. What should happen is it should be reported and dealt with; however it s not the exclusive preserve of trans girls.

Yes, I would have hated that too. But it's not the same as boys doing it to girls, is it?

Fox news is the source.

Yes it's fox news, they are shit, but if the mainstream liberal media refuse to disrupt the trans narrative, then you surrender it to the right wing, don't you?

idiot boy in lawsuit

Please don't pretend that teenage girls arsing about in a changing room with each other, is the same as a boy with a boner doing the same thing. It really isn't.

And the idea that "oh well, it can just be reported". Yeah. Sure. Because women and girls reporting male sexual harassment always get such a good reception, don't they?

lelapaletute thanks for coming back and I will try to reply to your comments as best I can. Wow you do like to talk, like me.

"It doesn't need to be women's fault to still be a problem for men" No it doesn't, and I have a son and a husband and do not want to see either hurt. But to be honest men could avoid most dangerous situations by avoiding pubs at night, football matches and war. Woman are attacked and assaulted and killed in their own homes, sometimes by the men who claim to love them. Really no one wins if we play who has it worst. But globally it was hearing about the little girls in Mexico who hid in holes in the ground to avoid being raped that really convinced me there is a global war on women.

There is no female privilege, just some things patriarchy gives which work out worse for men than they could, IMHO.

lelapaletute Most of the trans people nowadays who want to access female spaces did not come out as little boys, they came out as men. There have been so called 'sex change' operations for ages, since the 1920s. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen Why did Jenner wait until 60 odd to appear in a slinky suit on the cover of a magazine. Trans people are not one group motivated by one thing. It's far more complex.

"I always knew very well that my body was mine, no-one else had the right to look at it..." how will that work if your dd doesn't want males in the changing room at school but your dd's school says these males are trans girls, no different to her?

Do males have a long history of respecting females?

Listen to what Lila Perry has to say. She insisted on being in the girls changing room at school and brushed off the girls concerns by saying "I think this is pure and simple bigotry". Lila is 17 and has been presenting as a trans woman for a short time.

"Same as the move to shame lesbians into sleeping with trans women they are not attracted to. No further justification beyond "I don't want to sleep with you" should EVER be required" I agree but will young lesbians feel so sure they can say that if their society is telling them these males are females?

Let's listen to Rily J Dennis trying to persuade lesbians they should want to sleep with trans women. Magdalen Berns has a good take on it.

lelapaletute "…gas lighting thing and the stuff about girls being forced to accept this….If the GGs did a vote of the actual membership on this, and it came down to the girls not wanting to admit trans girls for whatever reason, I would think it a massive shame for the trans girls but I would respect it."

You may respect it but legally GG may be required to stick to it at some point. My anger at GG UK is they don't seem to have fought this but just rolled over. If they consulted the girls they didn't contact all parents and certainly not through the packs or leaders.

"I feel that a handful of trans girls nationwide entering Guides is not going to cause the collapse of feminist progress or the return of female subservience to male domination."

Well, we do not know it will be a handful. But to be honest the dishonesty around this, the not telling parents or girls, the decision to say it is all about 'gender' and not 'sex'. That to me is enough to mean I have no confidence in GG now.

"How can we not trust girls themselves…” It has nothing to do with not trusting girls. It has to do with not wanting girls put in this situation in the first place.

lelapaletute last one, feel free to PM me if you wish but I do realise you may not see this!

So in case you do, lastly, on how to handle the situation of trans kids.
"Hoops to jump through to 'prove' that they really felt how they said they felt in a way the medical profession would accept."

How else would you like it to be? Would you take the word of a 5 or 6 year old that they were ‘born in the wrong body’? Would you allow your young child to go through blockers and hormones and surgery and then in their late teens for the child to say that now that was a phase and they really want to just be a normal girl or boy again. There are always going to be checks and controls. Calling them hoops suggests you think that they are unnecessary. When we adopted we had to have lots of checks and controls. I know some people call them hoops too. But they are not. They are there for a reason.

"I haven't watched the documentary yet but I am expecting not to like it for any number of reasons based on what I've heard and read." Please just watch it and judge it on what you see. It is fair and balanced and has some very pro trans items in it. it is the most balanced thing I have seen on this whole issue HONESTLY.

"I feel like most kids exhibiting trans wishes should be handled non-medically at least until puberty" One of the issues is puberty can come quite early and those presenting as trans are very fearful of the changes to their body. I get that. What would be better IMHO is if blockers are used that there was a genuine openness that the child would explore their lives in a sense of being open to remaining/presenting in the sex they were born, NOT by complying with any 'gender' norms but just by not transitioning physically. But with on-going support.

And I totally agree with you about less gender stuff!

"I am genuinely bowing out of this one now, as I really don't have a dog in this fight."

You do, you know you do, you have a daughter. You are welcome to bow out of course but just remain aware.

I was in the Woodcraft Folk too.

And I love lentils!

"I just hurt for kids who are in a tiny minority and have nowhere they can go…” I hurt for kids too and would like places they can feel accepted. But pushing into spaces for girls is not right and it won’t, most likely, give them what they need. How can they make informed decisions about their own futures if everyone is made to buy into the idea they are just the same as any other girl? And there are places for all kids - Scouts and Woodcraft Folk are unisex, numerous youth and children’s organisations.

I don't think anyone is implying they are sick or twisted. I don't think the boys at my 12 year old daughter’s school are sick or twisted either - but can you imagine if the school chose to mix dorms and did not tell us on the various school trips my dd has been on and will go on?

"... I can't see how people can be so lacking in compassion for them." I can almost guarantee you women (feminist or otherwise) are not going to be lacking in compassion. When I meet a transwoman I am happy to call them 'She' and use whatever name they want to use, I do feel concern for them but I can’t throw girls under the bus.

My heart goes out to the young girls who will try to navigate school and life as young women, subjected to abuse from males at school, and I don't want to blur those distinctions between male or female because some of that awareness will help keep some females safer. That has to be my priority.

I’ll just leave you with one statistic so you can think about girls and what may be important www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37338712 “In 2014, 59% of girls and young women surveyed for Girlguiding UK said they had faced some form of sexual harassment at school or college in the past year”

Have you met many late transitioning transwomen in RL? Or have you just spent time on Google?"

My friend is going the other way (female to male) at the age of 42. At school she was a lesbian, then straight, then bi and now identifies as male and is attracted to women. Obviously it's not the same for all people, but it's often not a sexual motive at all, it's all about being comfortable in their own skin. The very message which GG underpins.

You are talking about transmen (or, female-to-trans, to put it another way). Different phenomenon.

Women who become transgender do so at a variety of ages, but are usually attracted to women regardless of what age they are transitioning at.

In the case of men who become transgender, they seem to be divided into two groups, as follows:

There are the "androphilic transwomen" or early transitioners. These ones were feminine-presenting boys from early on (preferred traditional "girls' toys, wanted to play with girls etc.), and made the decision to start living as a woman full-time during their teens. About 22 or so is the latest I have ever heard of in terms of age at transition for this group; most are living full time as a woman by 18. These transwomen are invariably attracted to men (though occasionally they can be attracted to both men and women). They tend to "pass" very well in terms of appearance and mannerisms--many live for years or decades without their friends or coworkers knowing they have a 7 chromosome. In endocrine and biological terms, the best way to think about these transitioners is that they are coming from the same "pool" as femme-y gay men.

Then you have the "gynephilic" (or autogynephilic) transwomen. These transwomen were usually gender-conforming throughout both boyhood and manhood, but do have a history of adopting women's clothing and accessories for erotic purposes. They make the decision to transition after they have acquired enough personal and financial capital to make the transition relatively easy--usually in their 30s, though occasionally as early as the early 20s, and sometimes in their 50, 60s or later. They are invariably attracted to women (though occasionally they can be attracted to both men and women). These women tend not to pass very convincingly, even at an everyday level, and their transition is very much a public thing out of necessity. They are usually white, and are more likely to work in high-prestige, "masculine" professions like STEM in general, engineering, IT, the military and so on.

The above is well supported by decades of psychological research. The terminology varies over the decadestrue vs pseudo, androphilic vs gynephilic, type 1 vs type 2, homosexual vs heterosexual, transkids and so onbut the general taxonomy is pretty much established as a scientific fact.

Y chromosome, even... not Y chromosome!

In endocrine and biological terms, the best way to think about these transitioners is that they are coming from the same "pool" as femme-y gay men.

Can you explain this a bit more please Mary? It contradicts much of what I've read.

"I feel that a handful of trans girls nationwide entering Guides is not going to cause the collapse of feminist progress or the return of female subservience to male domination."

Only a handful of men, relatively, are rapists.

But that handful, causes women to live their whole lives being mindful of the risk of rape. We make sure we don't go out at night unless we have to, if we socialise in the evening we plan ahead how we are going to get back so we don't get raped, we make sure we park our cars in well lit busy areas, we cross the road if we see a bloke up ahead in the dusk, when we go running, instead of going into the lovely deserted wild park area, we stay on the path.... etc. etc. There are so many ways in which we trammel our lives, without even noticing that we're doing so and without consciously acknowledging rape.

You don't need a huge number of abusive males in a space, to impact negatively on female lives. You just need one, supported and succoured by the structures and narratives of the others.

Yes, just like you inly need a few in sports to start making a difference. Tw and TGs are all ready winning women's and girls events.

I feel that a handful of trans girls nationwide entering Guides is not going to cause the collapse of feminist progress or the return of female subservience to male domination.

When did male domination on the wider scale end? Did I miss that glimmer in history? Lets not kid ourselves, some progress may have been made in some cultures but the idea that there is genuine equality between men and women is just not real. Sex is still a hierarchy and as long as it is, women and girls will need to defend safe women only spaces.

The irony of all this is that if there were true equality between the sexes then the movement of transpeople between the groups would be unlikely to be an issue. As it is you have to factor in the entrenched patterns male violence toward women when allowing self identification as the only entry requirement to women only spaces. Otherwise you put one vulnerable group at risk in the name of helping another.

I agree with posters who complain about the sneakiness of these changes - its hardly the way to win over an argument, to slip through changes in rules without telling the girls or their parents.

Fucking Mermaids and their cult of trans has corrupted everywhere.

Bastards.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_leaders.pdf

Jellyfrizz: try reading this link here:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/faq-on-the-science/

The blog is written by a very smart transwoman (early transitioning), and is a rare gem because it is both science-based and also incorporates personal perspectives.

She gives a quicker rundown here, interwoven with examples shown in videos.
sillyolme.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/transgender-field-guide/

(By the way, while the above blogger is vocal about the fact that she benefited enormously from transitioning and believes that there are many other people who also do, she is also clear that the majority of gender-nonconforming children "desist" and end up simply living as members of their own natal sex as adults--often gay and gender-nonconforming. She seems to be against socially transitioning young children. She is a very interesting read).

"I find it absolutely gob smacking that grown adults can actually think that someone would go through all the heartache and hassle and risk their safety, their friendships and family rejection just on the off chance that they see a girl guide or brownie guide in their pants."

When I was a teenager, I was in a relationship with a guy who liked to cross dress and had decided he wanted to trans to female, and wanted me to support him. He had a humiliation fetish, would "accidently" send pics of him as his female alter ego, then when he knew they'd been received, he would get "excited" and jizz himself. But hadn't disclosed any of this to any of the various doctors he saw. I was at quite a low point when I met him, and it took a few weeks to cotton on and get him to admit to a lot of things. The longer we stayed together (over about 8 months) the more fetish's and odd behaviour I discovered. He started to really make my skin crawl, so I left him. It messed my head up for a while. I don't think getting the op would have solved his issues. I don't know if he did or not, but the thought of him working with little girls, having had some plastic surgery and posing as a female, gives me a cold shiver.

WickedLazy

That's autogynephilia. And it's pretty prevalent, particularly in late transitioning males or those who are still attracted to the opposite biological sex.

The LGBT community almost seems to take it as a bit of a gimme amongst a certain type of transwoman.

It might interest you to know that when Maria Miller published her report on transgenderism it wasn't mentioned on any one of the 98 pages. The TRAs like to distance themselves from people with this fetish, or even question the existence of the fetish itself, for obvious reasons. Which, although understandable, does much to undermine the motivations of an entire section of transwomen.

If it wasn't for the insistence on access to women and children in their intimate spaces, I may not have much of a problem with it.

But if you know someone might be getting turned on because they are, entirely legitimately, allowed to be in your locker room, changing room it takes on an entirely different aspect.

An awful experience for you, and not unique. We have had several wives on these threads, with similar stories.

Datun

"If it wasn't for the insistence on access to women and children in their intimate spaces, I may not have much of a problem with it."

^ YY to this

Its odd, having had first hand experience of it, to learn that it's more common than I thought, and yet it's not discussed more. I really feel for any woman going through that with kids and rent and responsibilities too. It really can be a mind fuck.

I've googled, and the basic definition of Autogynephilia is "A man's paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman." That really does sum him up. Yet he was being treated as transgender, and put on the path to surgery to make him a woman.

What happens to these men if they do have the surgery? How does it affect their
paraphilias and fetishs, and states of arousal? What happens when they can't ejaculate and get that "release" the usual way? My ex would often come without touching himself (maybe to much info there sorry) but I don't think a woman could orgasm in the same way, without stimulation.

"If it wasn't for the insistence on access to women and children in their intimate spaces, I may not have much of a problem with it." This.

At the risk of repeating myself (several threads on here like this) Grayson Perry is a self confessed autogynephile. He is a highly respected, well liked artist, fast becoming a national treasure.

He does not say he is a woman, and has zero interest in accessing women's bathrooms, etc. As such, he does not class himself as transgender. If he isn't trying to access women's spaces, he is far less of a problem.

For me, there are those trans-women who genuinely want to express their persona through performing femininity, and may or may not have gender dysphoria. And there are those with a sexual kink. I don't really care about the kink if it's not a motivation to access women. Although there is something about that I find worrying. The fetish seems to be bound up with the idea of women as victims. People with AGP seem to like the idea of being 'used'. wicked did you find this? It's obviously an incredibly damaging gender stereotype as far as women are concerned.

But I guess, in the way that fetishes are formed, you don't choose it. But be upfront about it and don't insist on other people unwittingly participating.

wicked they don't have genital surgery. 70-80% of transwomen keep their penis.

Caitlin Jenner is a perfect example - all the money in thr world, even had facial feminisation surgery, but kept his dick.

And from what I have read, even taking female hormones lessens the desire. Since the ultimate dream is to actually be able, having the surgery would feel like the right way to go. But I understand, that the more you go through the medical process, the less you have the desire. What a conundrum.

On the other hand, all these men who secretly cross dress when their wives and children are out, will not need to even dress as a woman to be able to indulge their fantasy in the female bathroom.