This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

trans girl version of Guides I would be most happy for anyone to set such a thing up. it would most likely be more useful for the members anyway. Plus one thing I would not expect to do is join it. Just as I would not push my way into a trans only swim club etc. I would respect the rights of those people to meet and discuss what is relevant to them.

Hey Give up, never said you had to agree with me. But when I and my boyfriend walk past a large group of lairy drunk men together, I'm far more afraid for him than for me, as they are far more likely to violently assault him than they are me. I think the fact my sweet, peaceful, gentle partner is at higher risk from male violence than I am is not all cool and Jake because he too is a man, so it is somehow 'a man's problem for men to solve', as if he (who would never hurt anyone) is somehow implicated in his own abuse because of his penis as if man attacks woman = 1 but man attacks man = 0, because hey, they're both men and all men are the same big cohort right, and all of them are responsible for the acts of all the rest. It is precisely this kind of biological essentialism I dislike about the anti trans movement. Also, I wasn't remotely birchy or aggressive in my post, I don't see why you feel the need to be so hostile in your reply.

greyhound the idea of a trans girl version of GG would not work, because we are talking about a tiny minority of children. Trans people are rare; trand kids in either direction are rarer, trans girls make up only a proportion of that number. You probably wouldn't have enough in any given town to form a group.

Which is another reason I don't get the furore; it's not like every GG group across the nation will be infested with penises. We're talking about a few struggling little kids here, not hordes of slavering sex pests desperate to bunk up with your daughters.

"Convoluted way of saying wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice I supoose."

It would be nice. But women have had centuries of being nice- and it's brought us to a place where we are being asked to accept a male drafted definition of "woman".

Sigh

I have three sons and a husband and so am pretty invested in overcoming toxic masculinity.

The point about male violence is that it isn't women that are committing violent acts to men.

You seem to think a trans girl should be able to enter girls space... you haven't considered the girls at all, you've assumed that a transgirl is more of a victim than the girls. How so?

Like I say, you don't have to accept the definition - I don't necessarily - I just want to respect the individual when it does no harm to do so. But as I say, I am not one of these trans allies who argue trans women ARE women, the end, so I don't wish to be forced into a position of arguing for that position by people who have positioned s great big straw man in front of me so they can have the argument they wish to have.

"We're talking about a few struggling little kids here, not hordes of slavering sex pests desperate to bunk up with your daughters."

Oh, please. I thought you were making thoughtful contributions. I have had enough of this "if you question trans orthodoxy, you must think all trans people are slavering sex pests" It's just crap arguing.

Lela - what about sports. You have any issue with tw and tb competing with females and even winning the events?

Haven't RTFT, but YANBU.

And you've done the classic MRA classic of diminishing women's concerns.

We are talking about eroding safety. We are referring to girls having to slide along and forget how they feel so that boys who like nail varnish can pretend everyone thinks they're female.

And they will know.

"I don't wish to be forced into a position of arguing for that position by people who have positioned s great big straw man in front of me so they can have the argument they wish to have"

Says the women who just said that anyone questioning trans orthodoxy thinks trans men and boys are "slavering sex pests desperate to bunk up with your daughters."

Give Up, I think it depends on the individual trans girl. It isn't easy to act out against sex and gender expectations in our society, so I presume she has had a hard time socially and emotionally. Doesn't mean she hasn't had other privileges, or that her difficulties 'trump' those experienced by natal girls, who also have a shit time acting against sex and gender expectations, or living within them. It's not a game of oppression Olympics where greatest suffering wins.

I think the trans girl individually should be considered as you would any of the other girls in the group. If she bullies,domineers, demands all the attention, or is physically inappropriate with the other children, that should be dealt with. If the other girls are upset by her behaviour, this should be dealt with. But the mere fact of having been assigned make at birth doesn't mean that individual is going to cause an issue in the group.

Bertrand except I didn't. I was asking those concerned about the risks of sexual assault to keep a sense of proportion. Said nothing about trans orthodoxy (by which I assume you mean the insistence that gender identity is THE SAME THING as biological sex and this must never be questioned).

What you'll find is probably lots of people like you who are too busy being practically horizontal as they're so accepting of everything, or to be seen like that, that they will be silenced by themselves or others.

Being in female only space is crucial for girls in this male dominated world. My dd is choosing a girls school because she's fed up with boys who interrupt, crap on about football, talk about their balls and place themselves at the centre.

It gets tedious having to explain why it's important.

And for the record worrying about ones gender and wishing to wear skirts is not the reason 25% are self harming, suffering eating disorders or being sexually harassed and assaulted.

Gaslighting. This whole thing is gas lighting.

GiveUp I think how the girls feel is very important. But I think a lot of kids are a lot less het up about this sort of thing than their parents are, just as our generation is a lot less exercised about homosexuality and racial mixing than our parents would have been. I think if anyone's views should carry weight here, it is the girls being asked to share their space with trans girls. Rather than parents with ideologically driven issues about policing the boundaries of femaleness.

Bambambini don't give a monkeys about competitive sports so have no view on this.

Jillian Bearden transitioned around 2 yrs ago. Jillian was first place woman at a recent road race in Arizona. Their team mate was placed 20th - another TW, there could have been others - i don't know. They have put together a whole team of TW to compete as a team I though. So Tfolk might be few in numbers - doesn't mean they can't make an impact.

tucson.com/sports/local/transgender-cyclist-is-top-female-finisher-at-el-tour-de/article_2c7d291f-4376-57a6-9578-3831353032bc.html

No one is assigned male.

This is so basic, I'm embarrassed for you.

When kids are born their SEX is recorded. No one proclaims "this child will like twirling...."

Sex segregation is pretty standard for lots of things due to xy males statistically being more likely to commit certain crimes. If someone goes through surgery and takes hormones it won't change their sex but it does show they are serious about wanting to be someone else.
Identifying is a weak, vague term and doesn't mean much in terms of biology text books. Being respectful of this group is great. allowing xy males into a female space, e.g a women's refuge or a women's rape crisis centre makes no sense.
As for girl guides I don't think it is so important because the girls aren't vulnerable and it is nice to be inclusive, but it doesnt make logical sense if you follow through the argument.

Gaslighting. Agree.

My daughter would definitely wish to leave if there was a boy who said he was a girl. She would find it freaky, as do I. It is not normal. Young children aren't joining LGB groups ffs. So stop the comparison.

I think most transwomen, who incidentally mostly have penises and don't transition until they're 50 on average, are autogynophiles and fetishists. I don't need sexually deviant adults around my kids.

GiveUp, I'm actually going to give up now as your hostility towards me personally seems totally out of all proportion. This is meant to be a discussion board, not a place for you to talk down to and pigeonhole people who don't agree with you. I fully respect your right to a view and to protest in what way you see fit. I just think you're wrong and focussing the wrong things. I don't see why we can't have that discussion without me being accused of all sorts. But hey, that's Mumsnet!

It is personal. Liberal feminists are handmaidens.

Oh wow. So you think a 5 year old who identifies as trans is a fetishist? Yeah, checking out now. Sheesh.

I think a 5 year old who identifies as trans need social services to have a long hard look at their parents, not to be encouraged to join Rainbows...

That is not what I said, at all.

To be fair I think the parents of transkids as young as five are morons.