This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

And againnfor those who can't see the harm TAs can cause to women. This article was to acknowledge Sharon Maguire as the first woman director to direct a trilogy - especially one as successful as the Bridget Jones movies. Then the TAs caught wind and the article was changed and an apology put out.

www.bustle.com/articles/183525-bridget-joness-baby-is-the-second-movie-trilogy-with-all-female-directors-but-thats-just-one

I agree with you there, Titchy. The things we've learned about Mermaids are enough to make me very concerned about some of those parents who claim to have a transchild.

"How can you justify excluding a child because they don't identify with a random accident of the fusion of two gametes"

That randomness, as you label it, is me. It has determined all things about my physical condition. It means I am born into a sex class treated badly by the other sex class. No amount of my wishing can change this. Stopping or not allowing boys and men to constantly be in the company of women and girls, to not allow males to define females for their own purposes, this are not things we should need male permission for.

Go and Google Rachel Dolezal and ask if she should get to define what it means to be black.

lela I agree that most of the time, TW being classed as women isn't a problem and doesn't do me any harm. But where we have sex segregation for the safety, privacy and dignity of women, it matters greatly.lots of examples have been given on these discussions, but include prisons, hospital wards, showers, DV shelters etc.

And you can't manage it on a case by case basis, based on how lovely the TW is or how well they pass. Women is either a biological lived reality or it isn't.

If you think it's a feeling, then any man at any time can identify as a woman, and access women's spaces.

That's the fundamental issue.

When that was reported I thought it was fucking disgusting bambamini

There is no such thing as being "assigned male at birth" apart from a tiny minority of intersex children. For the rest, their sex is recorded, not "assigned". This is bullshit transactivist rhetoric. Who are these evil doctors and midwives going around "assigning" children wrongly? It just makes you sound like an idiot.

Bambambini* "I'd say many here were complete trans inclusive not that long ago"

i was, i signed petitins for a trans woman to be sent to a female prison (sorry to all women) and also for a trans girl to be allowed to use the female bathrooms. (sorry to all girls).

All I could see was that one poor trans girl and I could not, SADLY, see the bigger picture. Now I cannot not see the bigger picture!

lelapaletute thank you for your very kind comments about me, how lovely. it is fine for us to disagree and it is fine for you to have your own views. I know my posts are long but it is hard when one talks a lot one types a lot. I am working on a reply to you!

Rufus - both incidents i linked were just a few months ago - very recent.

The article on the Bridget Jones director had to be changed after TAs complained.

The comment sections on these articles from TW - show how much they care about how their demands affects women and girls. For them it's TW over women.

Please could we try and be polite here, I know it is hard but scaring away one another is not helpful.

Assigned male or assigned female is a term used in cases of Intersex children, which is very, very rare. It has nothing to do with trans issues and I believe (correct me if wrong) that the Intersex society of America has asked not to be linked to trans issues.

lelapaletute You know your child is a girl before she is even born and I don't want to fill your head with sad things but she will be disadvantaged by this. In the classroom the boys will take more of the teachers time, cause a lot more noise and some might even sexually harass her.

Do you know what a mother told me, (I am so fucking horrified anyone could say this) she said that the boys were better behaved when her daughter was not around, because she was so beautiful she distracted them! She said it in front her daughter. Her daughter is about 8. Sadly, lots of women assist men in their utterly shit attitude of us.

So we will get the shitty end of the stick and we will get blamed for it.

The way to challenge this is to challenge it, not to accept it, and not to pretend it is not real, because it is.

You said "I acknowledge that while membership of the class 'woman' oppresses me in many ways, it privileges me in others (e.g. far less likely to die by violence than a man," you are far less likely to be violent too of course, (so violence against men by men is not the fault of women).

"far less likely to commit suicide" possibly/probably because men cannot talk about their problems and issues, because the patriarchy does not encourage them to seek help, especially medical help, when they need it (so also not the fault of women).

,"far less likely to end up homeless)", yes the homesless situation is a big one and terrible but again, is this women's fault? Have we created these inequalities? (Clue, we have not!)

"I truly believe inclusion and dialogue are the paths out of oppression and division" I do too but you will not have much dialogue with powerful trans activist unless you are willing to say they are just as much female as you. So even your mind must be collanised. If you are a Star Trek fan, think 'Borg'!

"It doesn't hurt me to call a penis-bearer 'she', or to let them play/camp with my daughter."

You don't know that, though do you.that it won't hurt your daughter. You don't know yet how your daughter may feel as a 12 year old sharing a tent with a boy. My dd is 12, she has started her periods, do you know for the first time today I realised that she is so vulnerable. She could be pressurized into sex, she could become pregnant. I won't be worrying about my son in the same way.

I don't want my dd (she is a Guide) going to camp and sharing a tent or a room with a boy. No matter whether he feels like a girl.

"If I catch anyone telling my daughter she can't be a girl if she doesn't behave in a 'feminine' way, they'll feel the back of my hand"

Well do not let her join Guides because Guides says if you do not feel like part of the female gender you are better off not being in Guides (or words to that affect, someone else may have the correct wording but that is the gist).

"Where I disagree with a lot of those shocked at the GGs policy change is that the inclusion of penis-bearers is a direct invitation to sexual assault."

Well, I am not as I said before, a lot, trying to imply all trans women or all men are predatory. And i know a lot of abuse goes on in the home. But basically GG are saying if you say you feel like a girl or women, you are welcome to come along. How is that not worrying.

What is to stop any male who says they feel female from joining? That would include someone predatory. Just because abuse can happen in the home should not mean any organisation should take our daughters on a trip and put them in mixed sex sleeping accommodation without even telling them or us parents.

"... and most importantly encourage her to know her boundaries and to trust me and come to me if she ever feels they were not respected."

What if a trans girl tells your daughter it's OK for them to go for a naked skinny dip, or dance around in underwear, they are both girls after all, or sleep in same room or whatever? You see the natural instinct of most girls who are brought up to know their own sex boundaries is to say no, because you are a boy. Unless they are old enough to consent to sexual contact of some sort. But to say no because we are a different sex would be seen to be transphobic.

So you see you can' win if you play by their (males') rules, because their rules are designed to make them win.

Some trans kids are homosexual, so the trans girl would not be interested in a girl sexually but the girl is still being required to speak and act as if she believes this male child is a girl. Look up gaslighting

Of course, as ever, not all men, not all males, not all trans women or trans girls. But how will your dd decide who is to be trusted.

"I feel great pity for trans children (or even those who are just confused)"

Me too; but don't be surprised when one day none of the rights and boundaries you would expect to be respected are there. And trans activists are nothelping trans kids.

Trans kids can now no longer get counselling and help unless they are transitioning. That's puberty blockers and then (in some cases) artificial hormones for life and surgery.

Maybe trans kids could end up like the women on the documentary the other night www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b088kxbw/transgender-kids-who-knows-best being a female who ends up with a double mastectomy and facial hair and not able to identify yourself for fear of backlash from trans activists.

Or young lesbians told they should be happy to sleep with trans women who have a penis because 'it's heart not parts'!

These activist really are not nice people. Why do you think this gets debated so much on mumsnet? Because it safer, it is anonymous.

If you have time, Google Magdalen Berns, she is brilliant. Her style is very distinct, I didn't like it at first but now I think she is a hero, she calls out the bullshit. Like trans women getting cross that lesbians don't want to sleep with them.

I'm not a lesbian, but I am very sad that lesbian places have now disappeared.

Lastly "I think if anyone's views should carry weight here, it is the girls being asked to share their space with trans girls. Rather than parents with ideologically driven issues about policing the boundaries of femaleness."

A reminder, the girls are not being asked to give up their spaces they are being forced to accept any male who identities as female and will not be warned about this and neither will their parents. When your little girl is born you will want to protect her from this world and you will be shocked if the protections you expect are simply not there.

This is such a betrayal from GG I almost hope they will not be there in the future to tell little girls that boys who think they are girls are really girls.

lelapaletute sorry that is massive, I was trying to cut it down and it posted anyway!

Gosh, TWO transphobic threads on the same page based on the same Daily Hate shock headline...

I urge everyone to watch Magdalen Berns' youtube films. I am not a lesbian, but I'm a woman who is horrified by the abuse directed at lesbians. I haven't seen a single verbal assault on Twitter against gay men who don't want to have sex with transmen, because seemingly it is fine for gay men to really not find vaginas very sexy, but there is a tide of vile abuse of lesbians who don't want to have sex with transwomen, because of their "lady penises". They are called Terfs, transphobes, scum and then all the names that men have called women for centuries. It is truly eye opening. All women need to stand up for lesbians NOW. Go and watch Magdalen Berns. She is brilliant. We really need women like her now, standing up for other women in spite of constant abuse. She is brave, clever and funny.

"Gosh, TWO transphobic threads on the same page based on the same Daily Hate shock headline..."

You forgot to say it was "vile" and to flounce.............

Staying to chat toconclude or just flouncing off?

Toconclude

Gosh toconclude - you are an elephant! I guess if i say it, it must be true! Try harder!

T

Greyhound, I came back here and read this as you personally and politely asked me to. So you are the only person I will respond to.

I appreciate a long post - as you can tell from my own postings, I try to really think about what people say and respond in full, rather than just looking for the word or phrase I can pounce on and turn around backwards to support my point - this results in long posts! I also talk too much(!), so it comes out long. Hope you don't mind!

Basically, all your points about the benefits of femaleness not being women's fault - of course they aren't!!! Privilege doesn't mean someone is individually or collectively to blame. It doesn't need to be women's fault to still be a problem for men, nor does it have to be our fault to still be our concern. Indeed, much of what might be deemed female privilege, and male disadvantage, is a result of patriarchal benevolent sexism and gender roles. Which is why men and women both have a vested interest in overturning the patriarchy, to allow us all the full scope of human experience and expression not defined by our genitals. Gosh I can almost hear my friends above now, with their cries of "naive!", "handmaiden!", "quisling!" Heaven forbid I suggest the ideal feminism improves everyone's lot.

I know my child is a girl, yes, at least as far as the scans can tell she has female external genitalia. I don't know if she is xx, and I don't much care. I don't know or care if she has Turners syndrome, or any of a number of rare intersex conditions which flummox a male/female dichotomy. In all likelihood she is just a straightforward female. And in all likelihood she will not experience gender identity issues - most people don't, except in the sense of finding gender roles restrictive and wanting to break out of them (which is perfectly healthy!!!) But if she does - if she tells me she feels like she is a boy, that she wants me to call her he, to tell people she is my son, and this proves not be a transient phase but a firm and consistent wish the denial of which is causing her pain, I believe I would want to accommodate that. Can't say I'd find it easy; but I don't suppose any parents find it easy when their child wants to follow a path that will bring social censure down on their poor little head. But if she decides it is what she wants, and it harms no one else, and she prefers the challenges it brings to the alternative of going against those feelings.... I feel that supporting her will be protecting her. And be, I don't need to have given birth to want to protect my child. She is very real to me already, and I would do anything to keep her safe, in the women or out of it. But what I won't do is limit her life trying to protect her from the tiniest of risks. I won't make her fearful and mistrustful of groups of people as a precondition. I will encourage her to trust, and to love, but also arm her with information and confidence to say what she does and doesn't want. This can begin from a very young age, my mother did it for me. I always knew very well that my body was mine, no-one else had the right to look at it or touch it if I didn't want them to - and that adults should never have secrets with children, ever - that if any adult ever said we had a secret, what it meant was they had done something bad and I should tell another adult straight away. She also taught me, as I grew towards puberty and sexual feelings, that sex and related exploration (with appropriate people) wasn't dirty or wicked, but could be fun and beautiful, as long as it was what both people really wanted and as long as it was safe. Your skinny dip/underwear dancing/sleep in the same room hypotheticals? None of them would be an issue in theory; but if the non trans girl didn't want to, because she perceives the trans girl as a boy, because she isn't comfortable with those activities or for ANY OTHER REASON - she can just say no, and that should automatically be respected. She doesn't have to justify it. It's her body, her boundaries. No is fine. Anyone trying to go around these boundaries or shame a child into exposing their body to someone they don't want to expose their body to is abusive afaic, whoever the hell they are. Same as the move to shame lesbians into sleeping with trans women they are not attracted to. No further justification beyond "I don't want to sleep with you" should EVER be required, and those trans activists who do try and shame or pressure lesbians into sleeping with them are just as bad as anyone who tries to pressure anyone into sexual activity they are not comfortable with. Creeps.

They gas lighting thing and the stuff about girls being forced to accept this. Tbh this is the part I do worry about, in as much as the whole furore seems to be happening above the children's heads, when they should be central to it. If the GGs did a vote of the actual membership on this, and it came down to the girls not wanting to admit trans girls for whatever reason, I would think it a massive shame for the trans girls but I would respect it. At the moment it seems liked he executive have made an executive decision based on changing social mores; quite a lot of parents are outraged on an ideological level; and no one is asking how the children (trans or not) feel about it. Not ideal, and if I were the GG executive I'd do it differently. But in that less than ideal situation, I feel that a handful of trans girls nationwide entering Guides is not going to cause the collapse of feminist progress or the return of female subservience to male domination. I mean there are so few of these kids, and not all the kids there are will want to join the Guides! How many cases can we possibly be talking here? How can we not trust girls themselves and their supervisors not to handle these very rare situations, and deal with any of the issues that may arise sensibly?

I'm not at all wild about how trans kids are dealt with currently. There has always been an issue with how medicine approaches trans adults, initially classifying it as a paraphilia, and then treating it as a mental disorder where 'sufferers' could only get treatment they needed (be that counselling, hormones or surgery) if they exhibited the appropriate 'symptoms' (e.g. Gender normative behaviour for the sex they identified with, 'passing' as the sex they identified with for a specified length of time etc). Hoops to jump through to 'prove' that they really felt how they said they felt in a way the medical profession would accept. Because with kids people are even more wary of just taking them at their word, rolling with it and seeing how things work out, with the disapproving eyes of the world watching and judging whether kids are being 'twisted', this profiling and pathway-ing down a specific route is even more rigid it seems to me. I haven't watched the documentary yet but I am expecting not to like it for any number of reasons based on what I've heard and read. I feel like most kids exhibiting trans wishes should be handled non-medically at least until puberty, but this would be a lot easier if our society became less preoccupied with sex division and with gender conformity, so little trans kids wouldn't get the message so early that their body is 'wrong' for the sex they identify with and develop psychological problems around their bodies. Just my view.

Basically, I think a lot of prominent trans activists are often dicks. People who force themselves to the front line of any debate often are, cf dear old Germaine Greer. But I also think there are a lot of them toiling away just to live in a world where they are not killed and beaten up in disproportionate numbers, and where they can participate fully in society without constantly coming up against 'man or woman?' divides where neither box fits right as far as they or the general public is concerned. I don't believe they are by and large paraphiliacs, likely sex abusers, or sexual deviants. And I don't believe they are trying, as a group, to colonise and hurt women. I particularly don't believe those things about trans kids.

I am genuinely bowing out of this one now, as I really don't have a dog in this fight - I'm not trans, no one in my family is trans, I'm not and never was involved in Guides, and unless she's really desperate to, my daughter won't either (prefer the ethos at Woodcraft Folk, which will surprise absolutely no one here who has formed the impression I am a lentil-knitting liberal wet with no common sense :p ). I just hurt for kids who are in a tiny minority and have nowhere they can go to feel accepted and welcomed and safe, and my back goes up a bit when I see a whole forum of grown adults calling them names, implying they are sick and twisted and a danger to their daughters, etc etc. Not All Mumsnetters, obviously, and I know that's not what you and some others were doing. I just think it's hard enough for trans adults (the regular, scared, just-want-to-get-on-with-their-lives ones, not the famous and contentious activists), but for kids it must be a sodding nightmare. And I can't see how people can be so lacking in compassion for them. But yeah, I hate girls and want to throw them under the bus and I'm a handmaiden of the patriarchy. Pssh.

lelapaletute- Turner syndrome does not "flumox the male female dichotomy" and I think it is offensive to women with this syndrome to say so, it is a syndrome of females.

I find it deeply frustrating that it seems impossible to talk about this important issue because anything except complete and immediate acceptance of the "if you say you're a girl you are a girl" is chaqcteirzed as either saying that all trans people are aggressive "sex pests" or Being accused of being horrible to trans children -"calling them names, implying they are sick and twisted and a danger to their daughters, etc etc"

Some people do worry about the possibility of trans adults being sexually aggressive. And it is something that needs to be thought about, although to be honest, I for one don't give much head space to it. There are easier ways of being a sexual predator. Calling transchildren names? I'm sure it happens, and it's awful. But on this thread? On Mumsnet? Never heard it.

The issue is about th impact on girls and women's sexual identity. About girls and women being expected to give way to men and boys. About traditional stereotypes being reinforced in so many ways. And we need to talk about it. Without being silenced by accusations of transphobia.

Agree with bertrand

I think that the transing of children is a "sodding nightmare", frankly. Even more so given that left alone 80% of children with gender dysphoria will not end up as trans.

Bertrand 600 odd posts plus a whole other thread on here today, full of folks largely supporting your views, shows it is far from 'impossible to talk about'. So you can't shelve the faux free speech martyrdom. I haven't used the word transphobia, and have said SEVERAL TIMES I do not insist trans women and girls are biologically female just because they say they are. Talk about reading what you want to read.

And SirVix, check the grammar of the relevant section and you'll realise I made a distinction between Turner's ( which Germaine Greer infamously labelled a condition of 'defective males') and the 'rare intersex conditions that flummox a male female dichotomy. That is precisely why I mentioned it separately. Your post also a classic example of ignoring the bulk of my carefully written post just to jump on a single sentence you thought you could catch me out on. Lazy and boring.

Actually it's not just adults that may be a problem.

Teenage boys brought up in porn culture, also pose a risk to girl's dignity and safety.

There was a case in Minnesota where a boy who claimed to believe he was female, was given the right to use the girls' locker room. Where he proceeded to twerk around the room, showing the other girls his underwear, offered to swap body parts with them and behaved exactly like a sexually harassing teenage boy with no respect for the girls' boundaries. Two of the girls left the room to go to another room to get away from him and he followed them. They had nowhere to go, to get away from a male-bodied porn-saturated prick, because his right of self-identification, trumped their right not to be sexually harassed while in a state of undress.

Needless to say, the mainstream media didn't cover it. It doesn't fit with the "vulnerable trans children" narrative.

No, there won't be many of that type of boy joining the Girl Guides. But you only need one, to make every other girl in that troupe, deeply uncomfortable and aware that she's got no right to feel safe.

Price worth paying for male feelz, though, eh.

"Bertrand 600 odd posts plus a whole other thread on here today, full of folks largely supporting your views, shows it is far from 'impossible to talk about'. So you can't shelve the faux free speech martyrdom. "

Seriously? You do know folk are posting anonymously on this site? Have you seen how many folk (often women) are treated when they speak out in their own name?