This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

Des

I'm afraid you're not up to speed. According to transactivist Riley Dennis sex is also a social construct. Nothing to do with biology. As you can surgically modify everything, except chromosomes (conveniently forgetting about the productive organs), and 'no-one' can tell what chromosomes you have by looking at you. It is therefore not a biological fact. (God knows how we managed to make babies all these years).

True, i've had several transfolk ask me how I know i'm a female, how do i know i'm xx chromosomes - in a kind of "gotcha" way.

Didn't the menstruation and childbirth give them a clue?

titchy. "hmm Didn't the menstruation and childbirth give them a clue?"

No, i don't that occurs to them, they see their trans idols say this stuff and just buy it. Most of them are probably just kids though so don't really think it through.

These transwomen seem lovely. I hope they become Guide leaders . Stefonknee could even be a guide!

Well as conicted sex offenders, i doubt they would pass the checks.

But if you think TW should be included in all things female - they should be in women's prisons, be able to request female officers and medical staff deal with them, go to women's hostels when they get out and use women's loos, changing rooms etc. Maybe join the local netball or women's rugby team.

"Didn't the menstruation and childbirth give them a clue"

No because they get to be 'girls' without all the 'disgusting' bits

Ive given this subject a lot of thought and the only reason I can really come up with to accept trans women as women is to be nice. But when being nice results in male sex offenders claiming they are trans to go to womens prisons it isnt very nice for women. But of course as females, being the less important sex we are asked to put that to one side and prioritise the rights of male born people who wish to join our club.

If a boy has passed as a girl since age 3, never gone through male puberty and had full SRS Im inclined to think that whilst hes not a woman and will never understand what its like to have a uterus and a monthly cycle, he would at least have far more idea about what its like to be treated as a woman in our society. (Not that I necesarily agree with chldren being allowed to do this.)

But for the 40-60 year old men who retain their penis and feel that their identification and optional dress is all thats needed to qualify, I find it an insult that I should have to seriously accept he has the slightest clue what its like to be a woman. The genuineness of his feelings are irrelevent here.

He may very well believe himself to be a woman, but even if he did have some claim from atypical neurobiology as a young child, by the time he's made it to 40 I think his claim on womanhood has disappeared. Our brains are plastic and having gone though male puberty, and being treated as a man his whole live, how can he claim any understanding of what being a woman is like?

Nor will he ever understand with any likelihood as the chances of passing at that age are fairly slight so he will never be treated like a woman either. For I believe that passing does matter in so far as having any insight into how our society treats women. For a man who doesnt pass- which is about 90% he will only ever know what it is to be treated as a man in womens clothing. That obviously has its own set of problems but its no insight into womanhood.

Whilst my sympathy goes out to those suffering from gender dysphoria may it be through confusion or trauma, neurobiological difference, that I should be forced to recognise someone as something they are not tramples my human rights. If the best treatment for their condition is cosmetic surgery and hormones then so be it. This can be justified on the basis that anyone has bodily autonomy to modify themselves as they see fit. But to then also insist that this makes a woman is a non sequitur. I may as well have a boob job and a face lift and demand my birth certificate to be altered to be in line with my new youthful looks.

I totally agree, Desiderio. Great post.

....However I am prepared to make a concession for those men who wish to castrate themselves. I dont think it makes them a woman, it clearly doesnt- as reading any article by Paris Lees makes clear- how many times has your typical female journalist boasted about going to a hotel room to be spit roasted without having to worry about it being the end of her career?

But what it does do is make a man very much less of a sexual threat to women. So on the basis of reduced risk his presence in the womens changing rooms doesnt bother me. Also having to divest oneself of a penis to join the club does act as a natural barrier to any man thinking how he'd like see naked women. Though sports, prisons, womens short lists, rape crisis centres still remain problematic even sans penis.

des

A very well thought out post. It isn't really about this lad who wants to join the guides. He and every other person who has a genuine dysphoria is being made a mockery of by the transactivists.

Great posts Des.

One thing that really bothers me about this is that guides is a small space where girls get to break free from the stereotype, trans girls are the stereotype, that's what they are identifying with, an old out dated untrue stereotype.

Would all the people who are cool with this be equally cool with a white boy blacking up and joining an black boys organisation? Or would that be offensive?

What is the difference?

I agree completely and utterly with Desiderio

Girl guiding is for women, run by women.
Women do not have a penis. Therefore, if you have a penis you don't belong in guides.
If you are a girl who decides to identify as male and you want to stay in guides, well you don't have a penis so there is no reason why you should be made to leave.

Sorry if this has already been asked (I admit I have skimmed)

WRT the fears of some that a sexual predator may pose as a trans woman in order to access girls: why would a predator go to such lengths? He can stay exactly within the framework of his male orientation and STILL have access to GG by being a helper.

It's not specifically about the risk to GG members banty - which is probably negligible. It's the principle of changing the policy to one which puts female needs secondary to those of someone male.

On a wider society scale allowing males into female spaces DOES mean increased risk to those females, and if a supposedly girl-led, girl-centric organisation such as GGUK allows this then how on earth can former GG members protest as adults when even their own organisation supported the principle of allowing males into female spaces.

Dd's brownies raised a ton of cash to buy toilets and pants so that their peers in Africa could go to school when they menstruate. Would they be allowed to do this if they had a trans girl in the ranks, or would that be too triggering? All females have in common is their biology, that's it, their personality is their own. What exactly makes a boy a girl?

I'm an ex-Brown Owl. I emailed Girlguiding HQ about the policy and the shift it represents from single sex to single gender. They say there there's been no such shift and GGUK has always been a single gender organisation.

They are confusing sex with gender, don't blame them the whole world is.

BantyCustards under these rules any child wishing to join this girls only organisation- who is a boy who thinks, or says he thinks, he is a girl -can join.

He can go on camps and sleep where he wants. His needs or wishes will be discussed with him but the needs or wishes of the girls on the camp will not be taken into account.

I don't know for sure, does anyone? What happens post 18 for members, but for children the girls sleep in together because they are all girls.

It may be this boy who claims to think he is a girl is totally safe to sleep in with the girls. As maybe are a lot of the boys at my daughter's school (she is 12). But imagine if the school started putting boys in with the girls and not telling the girls or the parents!

How do the girls cope if asked how they feel? They are being indoctrinated and gaslighting techniques used on them to claim a boy, with male chromosomes and make genitalia is a girl because he says so. To not agree to this is labelled bigoted and transphobic.

Please Google Lila Perry. The teenage boy (17 I think, almost a man) who demanded the right to change alongside the girls in their locker rooom!

And when they said they were uncomfortable with this, he denied their feelings in favour of his own feelings and his own version of reality which is contradictory to biological fact.

This despite the fact he was offered a safe place to change privately.

Italian, and when they left to dress elsewhere, he followed them.

Lila Perry, who has you can see has a sexual interest in the sex Lila demands to share showers with.

Dame I don't blame GG UK if they are sticking to the law but my understanding is that gender recognition certificates are still needed and I don't believe these are issued to children. Anyone know ?

Plus it is the sneaky way these changes have been brought in. The deception by omission.

Plus if they are claiming this has always been the case I believe that to be bollocks.

I feel this may end Guides as we know it.

If GG UK had mobised to fight this bollocks this could have ended differently.

I believe GG UK are cowards. They are not willing to fight for girls.

For adult members, including volunteers, sleeping accommodation is segregated by sex (now gender). So, depending on where you're staying, the women leaders may be sharing a room. Male helpers (there are some and they do great work) are always in separate accommodation (often on the far side of the site).