This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

Well it's a voluntary organisation - if you're put off, I wouldn't send your daughters there if I were you.

Thanks for the advice lelapaletute; I won't.

But my dd and I have invested 7 years supporting an organization that supports girls and it has now been hijacked on favour of boys and men.

Do we just walk away and say "Well of course girls if you want female only spaces you need to know you can't have them! You can't have them because men and boys won't let you."

Sound familiar?

Everyone is caving in because they don't want to be seen as bigoted, and it's just girls and women so who cares, right?

The issue is, the organisation does not consider trains women and girls as 'boys and men', but as trans women and girls. You have a fundamental disagreement with the organisation there. So set up your own organisation with other similarly offended parents where you can set the rules on how to police femaleness. This large national organisation has made the decision to be inclusive; you don't have to agree with it or go along with it. But it's a bit like the C of E and women bishops; lots of very angry people in that organisation think it is a step too far and no longer feel served by that organisation. So they are of course free to leave and look for a less progressive organisation in line with their views, or set one up.

Essentially, why should your non-progressive view prevail over what the organisation has decided?

lelapaletute

GG supposedly fights gender stereotypes. It is one of it's main aims. How can you do this when you fully embrace gender stereotypes by becoming single-gender?

Gender is stereotypes about the sexes. If not, what is it?

Also, by and large the patriarchy and sexism have been VERY supportive of 'female only spaces', I.e. Separate spheres. Most non-progressive cultures still are, and have separation of male and female socialising, religious practice, even eating separately. I think that while there are certain situations where women should be offered female only environments e.g. Domestic abuse hostels if they have been abused in a gendered way by a man, the future will be in men and women and those who identify as neither sharing human space. Children are the future in this regard. They are much more open minded than we are, and have less baggage from historical oppression. Not that patriarchy, racism etc are over and done with in western society by any means; but we won't make them go away by retrenching division amongst our children. What would you think of a black-only children's group? I would find it a little peculiar to say the least, but the same arguments could be made for 'black space' as for 'female only space'. And then, what if the people who set up the 'black space' wouldn't allow people with only one black parent, e.g., as they weren't 'black enough' and brought the legacy of white oppression into the safe space with them?

Just a few seeds to mull over. As I say, if you want a social group for only girls assigned female at birth you should start one.

jelly I had this argument the other week and can't be arsed to have it again. I don't know why if some parents are so bothered by the Guides policy change they don't just set up their own social club for their daughters and the daughters of other parents who have the same issues.

@lelapaletute
That might work, but how long would it be before a legal challenge arose that claimed such a gathering was discriminatory?

But those of you saying that men are biologically men are confusing sex with the social construct that is gender, aren't you?

I admit I am on the fence about trans-gender and biologically segregated spaces and I see what some are saying about the importance of female spaces but the arguments you are making are to do with the social construct of gender and how those who fall into the gender of 'woman' have been treated as unequal.

While a transgender person who's sex is male may have in the past benefitted from the social construct of gender because they may have 'passed' as male gender due to their biology surely such individuals are as, if not more, oppressed than women who are biologically and constructually recognised as female?

Perhaps one of the biggest issues we face is the continuing support of the social construct of gender?

As for the one particular transgender person mentioned upthread - one predatory transgender person doesn't make all transgenders predatory?

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as clumsy.

The DM has picked this up...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4144118/BOYS-Girl-Guides-think-wrong-gender.html

Yes and for that reason I'm saying nothing more in any of these conversations.

jelly I had this argument the other week and can't be arsed to have it again. I don't know why if some parents are so bothered by the Guides policy change they don't just set up their own social club for their daughters and the daughters of other parents who have the same issues.

Fighting gender stereotypes is the whole point of GG though. It is all over their website.

If you can't be arsed to explain how you think gender is not stereotypes then I am not going to be able to understand your point of view on this.

I would be delighted if people could present however they wished without any kind of discrimination. How you present yourself should not be attached to what sex you are.

lelapaletute Thank you for engaging, I mean that very sincerely, it is important for us to talk about this with people who have different views.

"This large national organisation has made the decision to be inclusive..."

No, it has not, it has changed who it includes and who it excludes, it now includes biological males who identify as female and excludes biological females who are not comfortable identifying with the female gender.

I am fully happy with female bishops and vicars (I am a Christian and attend church) and I have no problem with other churches sticking to what they see as correct. This is not the same. The views on women bishops were not about biological fact.

"Essentially, why should your non-progressive view prevail over what the organisation has decided?" because the views you are deeming progressive (progressing in which direction?) are very harmful to girls. They reinforce gender stereotypes, something GG UK still claims to want to 'smash' for want of a better word. It also says clearly to the sex which has the least power (females) that even that little bit of freedom you had, girls, is gone.

In what way are boys who say they think they are girls, really girls? What makes a girl? please do tell me because I cannot imagine how this really works.

" I think that while there are certain situations where women should be offered female only environments..." who is choosing which spaces women can have to themselves. Can I ask (feel free not to answer) are you male or female? I do not mean that rudely at all, just curious, and also do you have a daughter? Again feel free not to answer.

"What would you think of a black-only children's group?" If black children want to meet to explore their own history or identity, I would have no objection. I cannot see how you, whether you are black or otherwise, should have the right to deny those children a group if they wished to have such a group.

But also being black or white (or any ethnicity) is totally different. Women exist in all ethnic groups and because of our biology we are lower in the pecking order in all groups as a sex class.

"Just a few seeds to mull over. As I say, if you want a social group for only girls assigned female at birth you should start one."

I've mulled it all over but happy to do it again. . I've thought so much about this issue, and read a lot, and met trans people. It's not a whim I woke up and decided was right.

I can't set up my own organisation because the same thing would happen. Boys or men would like to join and I would not be able to say no because biology now is not a truth.

Bollocks is it progressive.

BantyCustards "Perhaps one of the biggest issues we face is the continuing support of the social construct of gender?"

You are absolutely right, although sadly this is now moving in the direction where gender is all and biological sex is of no significance at all.

"I admit I am on the fence about trans-gender and biologically segregated spaces and I see what some are saying about the importance of female spaces"

Can I ask you too if you are female or have daughters, again feel free to not answer. You see those of us who do have daughters in GG (as I do, currently, not for much longer I fear), have probably encouraged them to join, and supported them, because we wanted them to be in female only spaces. At least that is my situation.

"While a transgender person who's sex is male may have in the past benefitted from the social construct of gender because they may have 'passed' as male gender due to their biology surely such individuals are as, if not more, oppressed than women who are biologically and constructually recognised as female?"

They will have 'passed' as male because they are biologically male. They will have been socialized with the same benefits as all men and to feel entitled in the same way men generally feel entitled. Some men will not identify as women until they are 50 or even 60 or more years old. They have had a long time learning how men are expected to act and they will bring that learning into female spaces if allowed to do so.

If you are not happy sleeping in a tent with unknown males or sharing showering facilities with them, as an adult (which I am not), why would we expect Brownies and Guides to be happy to do so and parents to be happy not to be told that this was even a possibility.

What would be progressive would be gender non conforming boys feeling happy and safe to join scouts, use the men's toilets and changing rooms etc.

"If you're that bothered, don't send your DD. Simple."

So a guide leader sees no problem with excluding girls from what should be a trip for girls, in an organisation set up to further girls' opportunities.

Because boys' feelz matter more than girls.

Got it.

BantyCustards I am told by a trans woman who was a trans kid and transitioned early, that these trans children will grow up to be adults attracted to their the same sex as their birth sex (homosexual). Many have been treated badly and suffered.

When they transition (with drugs and surgery) they will find their life situation a lot better and I am truly happy for them if this is the case.

I believe a very high percentage of people who identify as trans in childhood will grow out of it. So the trans girl asking to go to Guides may well grow up to be just another regular boy. At what point do they need to drop out of Guides?

When it comes to adults, how can a male person with the strength of a man be more oppressed than a child, a female child who may well be the bottom of societies social heap!

Our girls, female children, are being told to make room for any man or boy who claims he feels like a woman or a girl.

What does it feel like to feel like a woman or a girl? Can you tell me. No one else can.

The feminists I have met would all want trans people to be safe, to have employment, to be protected by law etc etc.

That doesn't mean we want to roll over and allow 'female' to be defined by what a male says it is. That is the difference.

The vast majority of violence done to trans women (and trans men, and to women) is done by biological males. Not women or girls. Yet once again women and girls are made to move over for biological males.

Biological males can choose to keep all the things that make them male (they cannot lose their chromosones anyway!) and identify as women. They can then be the first women soldier to do this or that. They can even tell us how women can do car maintenance because they do!

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h?utm_term=.ncWl7K9xAn#.nyqDpB3bQM

I am not saying these people are bad or horrible. Alex seems to have had a very hard life and I am happy Alex is happy. No one is claiming all trans people are bad. But it must be clear they are not female.

"As for the one particular transgender person mentioned upthread - one predatory transgender person doesn't make all transgenders predatory?"

No one is arguing all trans people are predatory. No women I have every spoken to on line or elsewhere has ever claimed this. What we are claiming is that this does give a very open door to any male to claim to be woman or feel like a woman. There is no need to go to any lengths - no surgery, no hormones, nothing. Not even a dress. Honestly if you want to explore this please do look around.

One day we will not be able to even distinguish between a crime committed by a man or a woman, crimes committed by men may be reported as being committed by a women.
www.newsadvance.com/news/local/lynchburg-woman-indicted-on-rape-charge/article_dfad94f8-035b-5822-92ba-22889896806b.html

"I'm sorry if I'm coming across as clumsy." You are not coming across as clumsy at all.

I think many good people are totally hoodwinked. NO one says all trans people are bad. I have spoken to lovely trans people. I have a lot of time for trans people.

I know that someone has to stick up for women and girls.

Even some trans women say that, at huge personal cost, that women and girls are being thrown under the bus. Because the very active trans activists are awful to anyone who disagrees with their trans women are women stance.

This is very interesting, it is from Miranda Yardley, who is a Transsexual woman.

mirandayardley.com/transgender-ideology-noes-not-support-women/

Phew sorry BantyCustards that was long. Hope you read it just get yourself a cup of coffee first!

White and black people are not different biologically. A black person is as different genetically to a white person as another black person. There is only one race, besides the socially constructed race which is akin to gender by way that it only exists in society not innately.

Men and women are biologically different.

I have to disagree with you there, given...

Sex is a genetic expression of biology.

Gender is a social construct and a state of 'being'.

"So set up your own organisation with other similarly offended parents where you can set the rules on how to police femaleness."

Why should we? The Girl Guides is a girls' organisation, girls and women have the right to fight for it to remain a girls' organisation. I'm reminded of people telling the militant wing of the Labour Party in the eighties, to go and set up their own party if they didn't like Neil Kinnock's version, when Militant were in fact representing a strand that has always been part of the party from its formation. Also Jeremy Corbyn supporters often tell Blairites to bugger off and form their own Red Tory party if they don't like the swing to the left; both groups are wrong, the Labour Party belongs equally to the left and right wing of the party and each has the right to stay in and fight for its version.

"Also, by and large the patriarchy and sexism have been VERY supportive of 'female only spaces', I.e. Separate spheres" Yes, where they have controlled them. It's very different to have a female only space which is NOT controlled by men and not there in order to prop up patriarchy, but to widen girls' vision of what they can do and be.

"the same arguments could be made for 'black space' as for 'female only space' " Yes, they can and I agree with them. Black people have the right to have black caucuses for example, within Trade Unions and the labour party and professions. Because they are subjected to barriers which white people aren't and don't even notice are there, just as women are.

So is your solution to have transgendered individuals and their loved ones to start up a transgendered version of GG/Scouts etc, Basil?

What about individuals who identify as gender-fluid or asexual?

Italian - Earl grey please (coffee sets my stomach off) Thank you for the replies. I am and I do in response to your question. I am still ruminating - not ignoring. I'm struggling because my life thus far has been steered by the patriarchy, my lack of really understanding what that means (until recent years) and the fact that because as a female in both gender and my genetic expression I understand what it is like to be marginalised as a result of circumstances that I had no choice in. I'll get back to you.

"So is your solution to have transgendered individuals and their loved ones to start up a transgendered version of GG/Scouts etc, Basil?"

I don't have a solution because I don't have a problem. The Girl Guiding organisation is a girls only organisation, there is no problem with that. In fact, far from being a problem, as long as we still live in a world where the structures of patriarchy have not been thoroughly dismantled, I think we will need sex-segregated spaces for women and girls.

But obviously if transgendered individuals want to start a trans version of GG/ Scouts, I wouldn't oppose them.

What about individuals who identify as gender-fluid or asexual?

Asexual is about sexuality not gender identity.

I do get very confused about all the different gender identities. Presumable gender fluid people would wish to access the spaces appropriate to which gender they felt at the time (assuming spaces are gender not sex segregated)

I too am confused by the gender fluid presumable they could attend