This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

Splandy's post at 8.26 this morning was a powerful description of one woman's experience of sexual oppression. What strikes me is that I can produce a list of experiences just as grim, and I'd be surprised if many women get through life unscathed by sexual predators.

I think it would be very illuminating for many men to read some of these accounts: the obscenity, the humiliation, the fear. Men who don't abuse presumably have no real idea of how prevalent this is, unless they work in criminal justice and I'd guess many would be horrified if they knew the score.

I would fully support Splandy telling that guy to 'sod off' or whatever terms you like. Even report him to his line manager for inappropriate manner.
I am 'suffering' from some abuse by a woman at present but expected to 'man up' or whatever expression and restart almost all of my life over again. I do not want sympathy but I do expect equality.

Prawnofthepatriarchy, I agree. I think most women experience that kind of stuff all the time. That's not even the half of it. Just the everyday stuff I can remember before I went through puberty. Nothing from when I was older or the more serious rape attempts. It's only as an adult that I have realised just how bad that is.

Equality meaning that it would work the other way around too.

Of course I can report him to his line manager. Don't think he had one from the way the company seemed to work, but that's not the issue. The issue is not that he is behaving that way in his professional environment. The issue is that that is his actual view of women! As a real person, outside of work, that is how he views women. And that society as a whole allows it to happen. All of the individual experiences collected together show a very grim reality, not a few isolated incidents.

And I would never use the phrase 'man up'. It implies that women are weak and you are therefore shit because you are like a woman. Offensive all round. Incidentally, the reason I became interested in feminism was because I hated the expectations put on my son.

A problem with a female boss at work is different. I assume you have specific problem, she is a bully, something along those lines. I'm talking about coming into contact with vast numbers of men who think that I am beneath them because I'm female. I've had personal problems with men that have nothing to do with the fact that I'm female. Two different situations.

outabout I admire your tenacity for wanting to keep talking about how nice scouts and Guides are but you are missing the point!

scouts chose to become unisex. Fine. This thread is not about scouts.

Guides said it wanted to stay girls only but quietly changed the definition of girl from sex to gender, while supposedly fighting against gender stereotypes!

And then while not openly telling people (including parents) proceeded to allow males who identify as female to become members and leaders.

How is a male going to help my daughter to grow into a strong confident woman?

It also allows for the fact that any male trans or not can join camps etc by identifying as a girl/woman, no surgery or drugs, just saying it is so.

And whereas leaders will be checked members will not.

If school decided to allow males in female dorms at school trips and not tell girls or parents would you still think school was 'nice'?

I would not.

And that is now (very sadly) how I feel about Guides).

I also object to the term "man up". It suggests you need to be a man to deal with things, while suggesting that, if you are having problems, you (if you're male) aren't "man enough". Putting pressure on men to be tough and unbeatable is bad for them, though not perhaps as bad as being encouraged to be passive is for women.

out I was in nct too!

're "I am 'suffering' from some abuse by a woman at present but expected to 'man up' or whatever expression and restart almost all of my life over again. I do not want sympathy but I do expect equality."

Ok, you don't need to man up, you need to deal with the issue, be assertive for your rights but not domineering. The issue is presumably not with her being a woman or you a man. Feel fee to say a veiled version and I will guide you to kick ass! not literally!

Seriously I never want anyone female or male to be treated badly!

I don't expect men to deal with problems differently to women either, so no manning up required!

What you haven't grasped outabout, is that Splandy's experiences, and those of pretty much all women, are not one-off incidents. Your current issue is a specific isolated incident, probably (though maybe not) unlinked to the fact that you are male. To women, such incidents are a constant, pervasive part of our everyday lives.

Single sex groups can help us fight against the acceptance that this is the lot of a woman. Admitting males to such a group immediately says 'Yes women you have to move over and accept your lot in favour of men.'

One of the things that's rung out loud and clear on this thread is women's anger at the sneakiness of the GG's conduct. They have put through a major unadvertised change to their policy, transforming a group that has always been girls only into one that is defined on the basis of gender. They have abandoned a fine tradition of encouraging girls to achieve without reference to sexism for one which values gender above biology. Their disappointment is palpable.

Just realised you didn't mention this woman being your boss, you referred to a female boss a few posts back. My point still stands, you just need to ignore the boss bit.

.... And back to the issue at hand. It can be summed up really easily, can't it? Girl guides, by accepting the idea of gender instead of sex, are reinforcing the stereotypes that they are supposed to be smashing.

"And yet I strongly suspect if a young child of yours was talking to a stranger you'd be less fearful if that stranger was female, then male, then a transwoman."

Nonsense - I always told my young children to go straight to the nearest man (especially one in a dress) if they ever got lost when out - rather than approach a woman.

Girl guides, by accepting the idea of gender instead of sex, are reinforcing the stereotypes that they are supposed to be smashing.

This for me is the crux of this topic. By changing to single-gender over single sex it destroys it's whole point of being.

Another Guides leader here and I agree with what most the PP are saying.

We wouldn't sleep or change in the same room as the girls.

The thing I like so much about Guides is the closeness and inclusiveness.

If you're that bothered don't send your DD. Simple.

We wouldn't sleep or change in the same room as the girls.

Not true, the sleeping part at least. As long as there are 2 adults and 2 or more girls then everyone can sleep together. I slept with about 60 brownies on a GG organised camp just last summer.

I love GG and it's not that I don't think girls wouldn't be safe in a multi-gender group. It's that the whole point of GG is empowering girls and as a PP said above Girl guides, by accepting the idea of gender instead of sex, are reinforcing the stereotypes that they are supposed to be smashing.

Gender is just stereotypes about what girls and women should be like.

oops, it's not that I don't think girl would be safe in a multi-sex group.

yaela123 your post is confusing. " I agree with what most the PP are saying."

Most people are saying what GG has done is sneaky and against the whole point of GG, potentially dangerous and is basically throwing the girls under the bus. Do you agree with that or did you just read the first page? Yes, I know it is a long thread.

"We wouldn't sleep or change in the same room as the girls." That has been said a lot. We know. But he trans girls (up to 18? Older?) who might join a pack camp will sleep in the same tent and change and use same facilities if they wish to. And this without any knowledge of the parents or potentially the girls (depending how convincing the trans girls look or sound).

"The thing I like so much about Guides is the closeness and inclusiveness." Well it isn't inclusive of girls who don't feel like they have a female 'gender' and it is not inclusive of parents like me who feel we have been lied to.

"If you're that bothered don't send your DD. Simple." Thanks, I won't and I expect once this becomes common knowledge lots of other parents will feel the same but I don't like the fact that a few people have taken this decision on behalf of a lot of guides and parents and their attitude is just like your attitude, we don't care how you feel, we are doing it our way.

PS - "We wouldn't sleep or change in the same room as the girls." That has been said a lot. We know.

you have said that and others have said similar but I do not know exactly all the rules.

And even if it is true trans girls will be in the tent with the girls and trans women leaders presumably with the female leaders if the trans girls and women want.

Argh.... first sports, then awards in the arts and journalism, then the WI, then boards meeting quotas with women, then the army first....

now the Girl Guides.

If you're female and you cannot see the issue with this, you will. Once something happens to you personally you'll understand and then it will be too late.

You'll be in a changing room and be met with someone's dick and if you complain you're a bigot and obsessed with genitals.

If you read the GG 'Girls' Attitude Survey' it's quite clear why girls need an organisation to help empower them:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/social-action-advocacy-and-campaigns/research/girls-attitudes-survey/

This year girls and young women told us that they feel held back by gender stereotypes, sexism, and anxiety about how they look.
They think they may not achieve their aspirations because they don’t feel safe, they’re facing double standards on what behaviour is acceptable because they’re girls and they don’t feel the same roles are open to them compared to boys.
Yet it’s clear girls are challenging this unfairness. They’re reclaiming the internet to express their views and have a voice. They’re calling out sexism where they see it and demanding that women and girls aren’t judged by how they look and have equal opportunities now and in their futures.

Well if girls feel they are held back by gender stereotypes Girl Guiding, why are you buying into it wholesale?

"Given the lengths that some posters believe peodophiles will go to to have access to seeing "Brownies in their pants"..."

That's exactly the dismissive tone I was referring to earlier. There are reams and reams and reams of evidence, about peadophiles who will go to extraordinary lengths in order to have access to children. It is well-documented. Everyone who knows even the basics about how peadophiles operate, know this. The police, government, NSPCC, everyone who has the slightest connection with this subject, know this. No-one denies it except peadophiles and people who feel that patronising women is more important than acknowledging reality.

It's just vomit making.

I have no idea what that poster thinks paedophiles do and how they get the opportunity to do what they do. Perhaps they think it's a bit myth dreamt up my feminists.

Just like Saville. And Rotherham.

It is hugely frustrating to not be able to articulate feelings about keeping female spaces female without being accused of transphobia. Or being told we are "jealously guarding "our" status as women" as a PP said.

Damn right I'll jealously guard my status as a woman.

FWIW I got kicked out of guides because I got caught smoking.

I think it's great that women are progressive and don't mind young college girls missing out on a team space, possible scholarship to validate the wants and feelings of an 50 something ex dessert storm veteran who got to play basket ball first time round in college (which actually excluded them from playing again until they identified as the opposite sex). It's truly inclusive and wonderful. Seems some of the girls on the opposing teams weren't too happy but being biggots and transphobes that they are - I'm sure their prejudice was dealt with.

No one is saying that all men who identify as woman are sexual predators, nor that all boys who identify as girls will be sexual predators. They are simply saying that they are male.

Not all men are sexual predators, not all boys are sexual predators. However the chance of a male person being sexually predatory to women is far far higher than a woman being sexually predatory to women. This includes women who are lesbians.

It is in recognition of this fact that men and women and boys and girls are often separated when undressing, naked or sleeping or in other situations where women might be vulnerable. In the case of the Girl Guides the separation is made partly for historical reasons and partly I expect to allow girls to experience a female only bonding experience where they can gain skills and gain confidence.

With regards sleepovers their policy is one of sex seperation, so this new ruling undermines this as it suggests that a boy who identifies as a girl will be classed as a girl and allowed to sleep in the dorms with girls. It is fair to raise this as a concern, just as it would be to raise concern about any other boy being allowed to sleep with the girls.

To those calling transphobia, I would ask, why do you assume that a boy who does not identify as a girl is more of a risk to girls than a boy who does identify as a girl? Or to put it another way why do you assume that a boy is less risk if he identifies as a girl? What is there about identification which guarantees less risk? Is there any evidence to show this?

The answer is no. There is no evidence to suggest that how someone identifies has any bearing on their chance of being a sexual predator. However we do know the risk factor is strongly determined by sex. So logically speaking a boy is more likely to be as predator regardless of his identity. Therefore it is not transphobic to be concerned about this. Its exactly the same as if we allowed random boys to sleep in the girls dorm.

If you think otherwise might that be because you are assuming that a boy who identifies as a girl is more likely to be sexually attracted to males - ie gay. In which case yes they probably are less of a sexual risk to girls. In which case why not suggest that all gay boys are allowed to join the guides? Although I would ask you - how will you determine who is gay? Will that be on self declaration alone? How will you know if a boy is being honest?

The other issue here apart from sexual predation risk is that of whether girls have the right to congregate apart from boys - by which I mean male people. This change to the ruling in the Girl Guides basically means it is no longer a female only environment. Males are no allowed to join. That's a big change. Whilst some males may see themselves as female, the rest of us can not ignore our senses and the fact that boys will still be percievied as male regardless of whether they are wearing dresses.
It is unfair to insist that girls must now be forced to pretend that a boy is a girl on his say so alone. Why should they be forced to lie?