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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

This puts me off Girl Guides.

676 replies

NormaStanleyFletcher · 19/01/2017 07:29

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

OP posts:
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Ifitquackslikeaduck · 20/01/2017 11:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

outabout · 20/01/2017 11:18

So the main argument is about men. Fine, continue as you are but please leave the organisations that try very hard to ensure EVERYONE has a safe and happy coexistence to get on with it.
All children (and adults) can form friendships with whoever they want. In a 'children's ' environment (GG etc) sex and any other inappropriate behaviour is not permitted and is dealt with accordingly.
Girls are just as capable at being spiteful and unpleasant as boys.

GivenupSocialmediaNOTMN · 20/01/2017 11:18

Although we know that adult male and female brains are different, that difference is nurture, not nature. It probably depends on where you grow up too. My brain would be different from a woman's brain if she was a Phd physics grad or a London cabbie.

Our brains are relatively plastic. But when we're born there's no male or female brain.

The idea that a man can marry, have kids and live fifty years as a man can suddenly feel like a woman is nothing short of an elaborate fetish.

GivenupSocialmediaNOTMN · 20/01/2017 11:19

Oh dear out.

you don't get it do you.

And yet I strongly suspect if a young child of yours was talking to a stranger you'd be less fearful if that stranger was female, then male, then a transwoman.

Manumission · 20/01/2017 11:33

They equate not only transwomen but men as being dangerous.

No that isn't it at all.

Take an extreme hypothetical;

Either my DH or DS, both strapping great bearded, hairy heterosexual men of very mainstream tastes, could both announce this Sunday lunchtime that they had now decided to self-identify as women and wanted to be known henceforth as Jackie and Mia, but had no plans for any form of medical transition (hormones or surgery) or to alter their wardrobes or grooming in anyway.

In that unlikely event, I'd know that they weren't acting from sincere motivations, weren't genuinely trans and I would start trying to work out which woman-only work project that DH was trying to get on to and which female-specific graduate scheme DS was targeting.

I might even ring the project team and the graduate recruitment people and point out the effect their self-identification rules were about to have.

But they could do it, if they took it in to their heads to and any organisation using self-cert policy would apparently accept them as women without a murmur.

I completely fail to see how this completely deranged approach benefits either genuine transwomen or women generally.

Manumission · 20/01/2017 11:36

Why would you EVER write policy that makes life so ridiculously easy for the nefarious minority?

And why would we not be wary of the possible misuses now that it has been written?

venusinscorpio · 20/01/2017 11:42

Ail

So, you're allowed to be all "I'm sooo afraid for my sons!" but other women aren't allowed to have a problem with the Brave Shit New World of the transagenda?

ailPartout · 20/01/2017 11:46

Datun

Good Lord! Asking if someone is a man means just that.

You don't appear to be an idiot and I've no doubt that I'm not. Asking if someone is a man on a thread where you're agruing as to whether the vitriol is because someone has a penis is clearly not a simple quesiton. It especially isn't when another poster wrote,

MercyMyJewels

He doesn't give a shit Datun. He just hates feminists. Because it's not about him. Yawn

as an aside, what kind of intelligent adult types 'yawn'?

Female company and female only spaces are important, for a start we are less likely to be interrupted, we can also be free in our expressions. It has a different feel. It's definitely a different dynamic.

Yep. Very important. Men only spaces are called sexist though.

GivenupSocialmedia
Although we know that adult male and female brains are different, that difference is nurture, not nature.

The same way it's nurture not nature that our hips and muscle mass are different?

I call bullshit.

They are both muscles and both differ in many ways between the sexes.

But when we're born there's no male or female brain.

The same for hips and muscle mass.

My brain would be different from a woman's brain if she was a Phd physics grad

I have a Linguistics PhD. D we have different brains? Which is likely to be correct on a MN thread or is that not what you meant?

As some said that your daughters had gone to male spaces (Sea Cadets and Scouts), is it only womens spaces that need protection because they are poor victims?

Someone mentioned taking a first period at GG and having to talk to a male leader. How about embarassing erections and having a lady leader or, again, is that different because 'reasons'?

MercyMyJewels · 20/01/2017 11:47

Wilful ignorance

ailPartout · 20/01/2017 11:48

wilful bigotry.

I know which I'd prefer to be accused of.

Can I make a request and ask you keep your ideas to the internet as opposed to real life where you give us all a bad name?

Manumission · 20/01/2017 11:48

I really would love a self-identification supporter to give me a sensible explanation as to why it's a preferable system to medical certification.

Anyone receiving any kind of substantive medical transition treatment could get a doctor's confirmation.

So the only possible issue is for "no medical treatment" transitions.

What is the possible meaning of a "gender transition" in which no medical treatment takes place?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 20/01/2017 11:55

Ail, when you write "give us all a bad name", who is this "all" of whom you speak?

venusinscorpio · 20/01/2017 11:56

I wonder which type of transperson benefits most from self-identification?

Datun · 20/01/2017 11:59

ail

Another poster asserted that you are male and I was questioning that.

Absolutely, it makes a difference if you're speaking to someone who is male or female. This ideology does little to affect males. I wouldn't dismiss your opinion if you were male, I would just have a better understanding of it as it wouldn't be impacting you.

I dismiss your opinion because you have told me you know little about the issue.

ailPartout · 20/01/2017 12:00

Prawn

Women. The common, typical ones. The 93% who don't identify as a feminist in the UK.

I do realise that you're about to tell me that everyone who believes in equality is a feminist or a pawn of the patriarchy, but, well, there is some solace in being in the majority.

Manumission
I really would love a self-identification supporter to give me a sensible explanation as to why it's a preferable system to medical certification.

I'm not sure I'm a signed up member of the former, but would it matter to you? Drs can be easily tricked. Given the lengths that some posters believe peodophiles will go to to have access to seeing "Brownies in their pants", surely, seeing a Dr is a small hurdle, easily overcome.

Datun · 20/01/2017 12:02

I'm not sure I'm a signed up member of the former, but would it matter to you?

So if you don't believe in self identification, why are you even arguing? Self identification IS the issue.

Datun · 20/01/2017 12:04

surely, seeing a Dr is a small hurdle, easily overcome.

Precisely. But the answer is not to remove all criteria. That's just going backwards.

Bibblewanda · 20/01/2017 12:05

ail

I have a son. I'm not afraid for him. He was privileged from the moment he was born because he's male. It really is as simple as that.

Women are oppressed. If you don't believe that to be true, prove it and try to do so in coherent sentences.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 20/01/2017 12:06

ail

My daughter joined beavers, cubs and left after a term of scouts...so i didnt say any of that

She has no interest in football but does play against boys in basketball at lunchtimes

FishInAWetSuitAndFlippers · 20/01/2017 12:06

Some of the 'bigots' on this thread have been a huge support to me and my child.

If they are so bigoted why would they help someone who is transgender?

Bibblewanda · 20/01/2017 12:07

And just lol at feminists "giving women a bad name".

Nasty old feminists daring to point out that our society might be just a teensy weensy bit misognyst. Why can't they just be happy? I mean they've got the vote and they're allowed to go out and work now, what more do these harridans want?!?!

I really hope you're not a woman. It's just depressing to have a woman spout such idiocy.

MercyMyJewels · 20/01/2017 12:08

Off you pop to Everyday Feminism then Ail, it might suit you better

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 20/01/2017 12:08

Surely inclusivity is about everybody having the same opportunities, not that everybody has access to the same things.

So women not being allowed to complete in the Olympics 100m would not be inclusive.
Both womens and men's 100m events is inclusive.

So why this insistence from some some that men must be allowed to run in the women's 100m to be inclusive Hmm

If a young male wishes to attend a mixed sex group with a similar ethos to guides there are many available to him. It is not excluding him to say that guides is single sex female. It would be exclusion if no other uniformed youth organisation existed, but that is not the case.

Datun · 20/01/2017 12:08

wilful bigotry.

I know which I'd prefer to be accused of.

Exactly!! Hence the no platforming, shutting down of debate, people bending over backwards to accommodate without thinking.

The smallest hint of scrutiny is pounced on. Why? Why can't it be discussed?

venusinscorpio · 20/01/2017 12:11

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