This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

There we go again with the whole bigotry/transphobia thing.

Do you know where all this crying of transphobia and bigotry has got transgender people?

It has them to the point where they are no longer get psychiatric help. They are accepted to the point of not getting offered help they need and are getting life long drugs pushed on them instead.

It has us to a point where you no longer have to do anything other than wake up and decide you fancy changing sex to be transgender. It also lumps together the people who do merely fancy a change for a few days in with the people who have struggled with this for years.

It has opened the doors to self identification which has been the biggest downfall of us all. Self identification seems so wonderfully inclusive on the face of it, but all it really means is that some people now can and will use it to hurt others which will insight even more hate against genuine transgender people.

It means that schools now have to be fully inclusive, regardless of the wishes of the child, they will be pushed to use facilities for the sex they present as so the school can tick a little box saying they are inclusive and give themselves a pat on the back whilst ignoring the best interests of the child involved.

It has got us to such an unquestioning frame of mind that it's considered transphobic to deny a child lifelong drugs, or even to make it hard to get them. Bloody hell it should be hard to get them.

So before you stand up and claim bigotry and transphobia on behalf of transgender people have a deeper look at the harm this new all inclusive movement has caused them, and will cause all the people who will so easily get medication in future.

It was a struggle before all the transactivists got involved, but there were ways to be inclusive and respect the boundaries of others too, now the whole inclusive system leaves everyone so open to abuse.

All the right on cries of transphobia and bigotry have changed rules and laws to such a point where it has left people genuinely struggling through this mess absolutely fucked.

Thanks for standing up for the rights of transgender people folks, thanks very much.

Applauds Fish and

Ail -

you are very right on - i was too untill a year or so ago when the olympic ruling to allow males to compete against females came out.

How far do you or are you willing to accept males who identify as women/female into every aspect of female society, groups, sports etc? You happy to watch a male lift the women's wimbledon trophy? See your daughter lose out on a sports scholarship to a male? Shower and Change in your gym's communal changing room?

Is there anywhere you draw a line?

"why is there still this insistence that boys are not allowed to join Guides?

Bigotry. Simple. Scouts is an inclusive organisation though."

This is definitely bollocks. Guides and Scouts were both given the option of staying single sex. Scouts opted to accept girls because their numbers were rapidly falling. Guides opted to remain girls only because, among other reasons, there are many girls worldwide and in this country who would not be allowed for cultural or religious reasons to take part in the Movement if they had to do it alongside boys. This is obviously wrong, but it is not going to be helped by denying girls the opportunity to experience mixing with people with other views.

*I'm sure there are some amazing gay guide leaders too.

But probably afraid to come out, based on evidence shown here!*

What?! I think you may have confused transgender with gay. No one on here has suggested they would be unhappy with a gay guide leader. There are loads of them out and proud. It's not generally announced, just as a leader would not announce they were straight.

Will any of you answer as to what you would tell your daughter who wanted to join Scouts?

Again huh?! I'd tell them crack on. My daughter has just joined the sea cadets because she wanted to.

Are you actually suggesting Maxinne Carr is a poor woman / victim?

Yes, I would and I do.

She made a stupid decision but Huntley was an abusive and controlling man and I don't think she knew how to think for herself.

"Will any of you answer as to what you would tell your daughter who wanted to join Scouts?"

My dd was a Scout for 5 years. What is the point of your question?

Why are you so hung up on gay people? How is it relevant? People wanting a relationship with somebody of the same sex without it being a criminal act has absolutely ZERO affect on anybody else. Nobody else's business.

A man dressing as a woman, wearing dresses, using a woman's name has ZERO affect. I couldn't care less.

A man claiming he is a woman and therefore has the right to enter private spaces there for the safety of women, or to enter sports competitions against women? Yeah, that affects women in a negative way. It is eroding what it even means to be female.

Fish

Very intelligent and interesting post.

I know little to zero about trans issues. I've never met a trans person. Trans issues have had no effect on my life.

My issue is that it always lifts the thinly veiled misandry that shrouds modern feminism.

BertrandRussell

You say 'cultural' but you mean religious. As someone who works in scools, I would love to educate the religion out of children. I'm fairly sure that this has lost me at least 2 jobs in my career.

I guess these girls do deserve pity but I wonder if keeping Guides as inclusive is enabling sexism in the name of culture religion.

Bambambini

Are you talking about Caster (SA sprinter?).

Honestly, I'm not sure.

I think I believe in male and female competitions as men who compete are stronger than women. However, I also believe we have different brains but this is pounced on and I'm told I'm clearly wrong because 'reasons'.

Jelly

I haven't confused sexuality with trans-stuff.

You're right, it's socially unacceptable to be a homophobe. Being against anyone with a penis ("bepensised" as one PP twat wrote) is fair enough though, in the MN microcosm.

My dd was a Scout for 5 years.

My daughter has just joined the sea cadets because she wanted to.

I'm on my phone so can't search through previous posts but surely by allowing this, you're refuting all arguements about allowing men / trans into guides.

The only possible argument against this is saying that women deserve safe spaces. 'No men allowed' areas. Quite close to 'No blacks, no dogs', don;t you think?

How do you feel about Gentlemans's Clubs'? DH is a member of one. I mean one where school ties are important, not one with poles and dancers.

Ali

How about a lesbian? Or an Asian? Do they get to vote?

I don't understand this. Transgenderism has nothing to do with race or sexual orientation.

Are there many people identifying as trans-who have a highly dubious sexual motive. Yes. Very definitely.

If you disagree with this, all that tells me is you can't read. Even when someone provides you with links. In fact, according to Blanchard it's anywhere between 80-100% of late transitioning males. It's important to make that distinction. That is a sub section of transgenderism.

It worries me deeply that people are not allowed to question the trans-ideology. There is no debate. There is no scrutiny. The no platforming is censorship of the worst kind - fuelled by unfounded cries of bigot and transphobia with zero tolerance of a rational exchange.

Germane Greer - hi priestess of feminism and Champion of women's rights her entire life - censored.
Julie Bindel - lesbian, champion of women's rights and done more to help victims of domestic violence than anyone - censored.
Miranda Yardley - an actual trans-woman disagrees with the activists - censored.

A guy called Helen - another transwoman said to the activists 'if you don't want people to see you as in titled abusive men, stopped acting like them'.

A parent of a transgender child on here, wading uphill to find any support for her child and being forced into a distressing situation because of the trans-activists rhetoric.

If statistics, evidence, real life experience and science are bigoted, then God help us all.

No-one is appalled at men wanting to be women or dressing as women. It must be excruciating sometimes. It's the insistence that they ARE women. Actually ARE biological women, with female penises, whom lesbians should sleep with. Surely to heaven no-one can seriously believe that.

ail I have other issues surrounding trans issues too, I have daughters, I can see the impact it may have on them in future.

I'm just finding it very hard to swallow all the people shouting transphobia the minute someone disagrees with the all inclusive viewpoint without realising the impact it's having on the very people they think they are defending.

*My daughter has just joined the sea cadets because she wanted to.

I'm on my phone so can't search through previous posts but surely by allowing this, you're refuting all arguements about allowing men / trans into guides.*

How so? Scouts and sea cadets are mixed-sex. Guides is/was single-sex.

No men allowed' areas. Quite close to 'No blacks, no dogs', don;t you think?

You support Gentleman's Clubs but not female only GG? So no men allowed areas are bad but no women allowed areas are fine? I really don't understand your logic here.

Ail
"My issue is that it always lifts the thinly veiled misandry that shrouds modern feminism".

You have a MRA agenda then. "Trans issues have had no effect on my life" But they do have an very negative effect on the lives of women and girls. That is why we are discussing this. It's not about you. It's not about taking 'rights' from men or other such bollocks

My issue is that it always lifts the thinly veiled misandry that shrouds modern feminism.

Oh I see, it's all gone a bit MRA. Naturally, I suppose.

How dull.

In Scouting, Male and Female leaders are not permitted to enter the changing rooms/toilets for youngsters and if it is necessary for cleaning or similar circumstance, would have to be joined by a second leader or I presume at least 2 youngsters. The usual procedure would be to ask another youngster to go in and check it was empty.
My main point is that within the children orientated organisations (GG, Scouts and others) a massive effort is put in to ensure children do not get subjected to any abuse of any sort so any parent should feel reasonably confident that they will be safe. As part of this, certainly in Scouts parents are very welcome to join in the activities. For an evening at the troop hut it can be informal but if it were a trip away where there is a possibility that the adult may be left with children they would need DBS checking.
Kindly do not pillory these organisations for children because you are prejudice/bigoted. I am not attempting to say that some of the arguments put forward are not valid but pick on the real perpetrators.

Oh, it's just another "feminists are nasty man haters" post. What a disapointment.

For the record, my dd became a Scout because she wanted to, and Scouts are a mixed sex organization.

And with regard to girls not being allowed to join an organization alongside boys- I used "cultural" advisedly. My understanding is that there is no actual religious reason why Muslim girls would not be able to join, it is a matter of culture, not doctrine. And yes, in an ideal world that would not be an issue. But in the world we live in, we have a much better chance of changing things if we encourage the next generation of girls to broaden their horizons.

Fish

Ah, so you're against inclusivity?

Only for or against something because of the effect it may have on your daughters?

I'm not 'for' it per se, beyond arguing the toss with random keyboard warriors. As I said, it seems that when people have issues with trans rights, it's thinly veiled misogyny.

"I don;t have a problem with trans rights but..."

"I'm not racist, but..."

I always read the two in the same male SE accent with glottal stops and deep sense of irony.

Jelly

Transgenderism has nothing to do with race or sexual orientation.

Why not? I don't think it's something the vast majority of people choose. I think trans is a 'thing' you're born with and therefore should be protected. People can pretend to be gay. Pretend to be trans. They can even pretend to be disabled. Some woman (forget her name), even pretended to be black.

I certainly wouldn't argue lesbians should sleep with them. Perhaps they make ugly women!

If you disagree with this, all that tells me is you can't read.

Or haven't read as I have many other things to do, you patronising ...

You realsie writing 'censored' at the end of a sentence is about the same level as writing 'fact!' and expecting acceptance. MyPhD would have been much simpler if your way was accepted.

Bimble

[Carr] made a stupid decision but Huntley was an abusive and controlling man and I don't think she knew how to think for herself.

I genuinely have no answer for this. I squint a little. Turn my head to an angle and wonder if logic can ever pass in to you.

Admittedly I have not read the whole thread but is the underlying assumption that a trans person is going to abuse a child? Because I don't think there is any evidence to prove that a trans person is going to abuse a child any more than a woman.
That said, I think I'd like to be told if a trans person was going to be in the room with my child but at the same time, the modern, progressive person I try to be thinks that it shouldn't be an issue, that I should trust that the guides will vet the person, no matter how they identify.

I'm against the blanket inclusively that happening at the moment. Plenty of ways to be inclusive without self identity being the default position.

Plenty of ways to be inclusive without self identity being the default position.

Such as?

XX / XY tests and nothing beyond?

XXXY get sent too...?

Plenty of ways to be inclusive without self identity being the default position.

Such as?

XX / XY tests and nothing beyond?

XXXY get sent too...?

Such as all the ways my child didn't miss out on anything, yet still remained respectful of others in the years before self identification came to play.

I've been living it for years, there's very little you could tell me about any of this that I haven't dealt with or lived through.

Hollie, no one is suggesting transpeople are dangerous. What they are saying is that if self-identification is the only requirement, people who are predators will take advantage of that to gain access.

However the majority of the thread is actually that women deserve the right to congregate as a group of just natal females, and that outlawing this is a step backwards.

Oh and of course Maxine Carr was massively over-demonised in comparison to what she actually did. Somehow she is viewed on par with Rose west and Myra hindley

I know little to zero about trans issues.

Ail. You haven't read about it to get informed. No problem. I, and many other women have.

Until I started to read about this, I had never experienced much misogyny. Casual sexism, yes of course. And there are always those who go above and beyond in the cause of putting women down.

But frankly, after reading some of the bile put out by transactivists I suddenly realised what feminism was for.

Are some men misogynistic? Yes. Are transactivists disproportionately of this group? Yes! Not all men, not all transwomen. But the transactivists are driving the agenda and they really, really don't like women.