This puts me off Girl Guides.

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

I always expected Girl Guides to be a fully female environment. And WTF about not telling parents if it isn't?

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

OK
Two possibilities. Go along and be a helper at GG or even sign up as a leader.
Decide that GG is not for you and move on.

Out
Please assure me you don't have a formal association with the GG

Let's not start thinking that we can allow children to be the guards of their own safety by allowing trasnwomen role play as GG leaders because we don't want to hurt their feelings by telling them THEY ARE NOT WOMEN.

Can you imagine a young child who had reservations taking the enormous leap of saying to someone in authority 'that person is male'? The women on here who question the trans-ideology are subjected to a massive amount of name-calling, backlash, outrage. Could you imagine a child having to deal with even a fraction of that?

No.
I am being discriminated against because I am a man.
You may be surprised to listen to what 'darling' girls and boys of 11 - 14 year age group discuss.
GG and Scouts do their utmost to ensure all people are safe, both the children and adults. All the work is voluntary.
If you are concerned, go to a GG meeting and help out, once you have had your DBS checks or if a casual 'one evening visit' you will be be partnered by a DBS checked leader.

The best bit about all this is that when you ask the girls what they think about it they are fully supportive on transgender people being in GG. Seeing as it's them GG is there for I think it's admiral that they ignore the parents and work with the girls ideas

I had no idea you were a man and frankly I don't give a fuck. But your responses to valid concerns are worrying.

Anyway, I urge you to consider the concerns raised

Outabout no one is disparaging what guides and scouts and all the unpaid leaders and other volunteers do (myself included as it goes) - they are both brilliant fabulous organisations and I recommend every kid joins.

But you have spend your entire life being a bloke. You don't know the reality that most women face - sexual assault, low paid work, not taken seriously for senior roles, discouraged from doing STEM, steered towards caring professions not engineering, being shouted down in the classroom, being sneered at by the boys in your class for volunteering your opinion. It's constant. Once a week we want a space where our daughters don't have any of that. They can be themselves.

GGUK just took that away.

I don't know if you have ever run an Explorer Unit? The dynamic when you have a mixed group is very different from a girl only group. Girls and boys slip into stereotypical roles. The girls are confident and gobby, but they're not shouting 'I'll drag that tree trunk to the camp fire', they're shouting 'Oi Fred, drag that log to the fire we're getting cold.'

You don't get that at a girl only group.

But apparently empowering our girls to smash down gender stereotypes doesn't matter when there's a natal boy in the room - their needs trump the others.

Lottied "The best bit about all this is that when you ask the girls what they think about it they are fully supportive on transgender people being in GG. Seeing as it's them GG is there for I think it's admiral that they ignore the parents and work with the girls ideas"

Have you any idea how hard it would be for anyone publicly these days to speak about 'gender issues'? Why do you think Mumsnet is so popular to discuss all this shit? because it is anonymous.

I do wonder how young women and girls are meant to be able to learn anything about these issues. The 'official' information is so biaised.

The word 'inclusive' is bandied about! Inclusive if you identify as a girl or women. But if you are a girl or woman who doesn't identify as such then out you go. See not so inclusive.

Plus I don't remember anyone asking my daughter, or me; I pay for the uniform, subs, camps etc.

So true titchy

outabout I had no idea you were a man. I responded to your comments as anyone might respond to anyone else. You are talking about individual groups. My dd's group is lovely, the leaders, helpers, girls, all fab. I've encouraged dd to stay when she got bored before because I felt it was valuable to be in a group of people who are part of the sex class female - not people who think they are women or girls or feel like women and girls.

I went to Woodcraft Folk. If I had wanted a mixed group for dd there would be WF or Scouts/Cubs etc. The girls only thing was the GG special bit, that will go, in time, I think.

Just as a note, Scouts' policy on trans members is exactly the same as GGs policy, including self-identification and the use of toilets/showers and sleeping arrangements for camps and residentials.

Loopsdefruits Scouts isn't an organisation for girls.

Why goes GG think Gender identity is the criteria now not sex?

I have been an assistant Scout leader for several years.
The group has had both boys and girls over the years , sometimes more of one than the other, the 'dynamics' of the group changes a little but all the youngsters have a great time which is the purpose.
I am surmising here but the kids themselves view the others more as people rather than strictly whether they are boys or girls, Some get on, some don't. Lottied25 said a good point, the kids are happy to make their own choices. Misbehavior of any sort is dealt with and if you read what I have written in earlier posts any 'contact' by adults is monitored by others. In the case of an injury a leader HAS to ask permission from the child if it is OK to touch them to administer a sticking plaster or whatever. Being alone with a single child is not permitted. This alone can cause great logistical headaches with insufficient leaders or (DBS checked) helpers.
All scout, and presumably GG leaders have to carry their safeguarding card while on scout (GG) activities which lay down what is and is not permissible. Other leaders and the children themselves can call any 'suspect' activity to attention which would lead to an immediate investigation.
What this thread has descended into is not a discussion of the issues relating to the majority of the situations for GG and Scout members.
The ethos of Scouting and (presumably) GG is to include as many PEOPLE as possible. The kids themselves can decide who they want to work/play with wherever practical (25:1 is not good for a football or similar team game). Those who are Trans gender are still PEOPLE and no greater danger to children than anyone else.

outabout re "The ethos of Scouting and (presumably) GG is to include as many PEOPLE as possible."

That was not my understanding of Guides.

Their website says "Girlguiding empowers girls in Rainbows, Brownies, Guides and The Senior Section to discover the best in themselves"

And on their About us page.

"We are the leading charity for girls and young women in the UK"

Please believe me that there is nothing wrong with any organisation which is for girls and boys. But as a parent I encouraged my child to join and stay in GG (Rainbows/Brownies etc) because it was for girls. She has a mixed school, mixed church activities and spends a lot of her waking hours in the company of both females and males.

When has anyone on this thread even hinted any belief that trans people are not people! You really seem to be missing the point of choosing a single sex organisation (which I think many parents thought they were doing).

I know I do not need to say this BUT I am not a man hater or a trans person hater, at all. I would like one organisation for girls that's all.

Scouts is all about YOUNG PEOPLE aged 10 1/2 to 14 1/2 to get together and have fun and learn new skills. The leaders are there to facilitate this in as fair a way as possible. Part of this is to appreciate PEOPLE from other cultures and backgrounds.
Beavers and Cubs are similar but obviously different age ranges.
Explorers are different again as they are getting rather older and naturally their 'take' on life changes.
Quote: [The girls are confident and gobby, but they're not shouting 'I'll drag that tree trunk to the camp fire',] I beg to differ in our group. Try getting the football, or an axe of some of the girls when there are trees around!

outabout do you know how the girls act when the boys are not around?

"Those who are Trans gender are still PEOPLE and no greater danger to children than anyone else."

"People" aren't a danger to children. Women participate in the rape or sexual assault of a child so rarely, that every time they do, it hits the headlines - because it's so unusual. If a child gets raped or sexually assaulted, it is usually by a man.

Using the term people instead of man in that context, is refusing to name the problem.

Men who wish to rape and sexually assault children, go to the most enormous lengths to gain access to them. They invest years of their lives in grooming a child and his or her family, so that at a certain point, they can safely get away with the sexual abuse of that child. Men like Ian Huntley, take up with naieve women with low self-esteem in jobs where they work with children, in order to gain access to those children. Men will go to the trouble of marrying women and living with them and even having children with them, in order to make themselves look normal and strengthen their chances of gaining access to victims.

If the girl guides accept as guide leaders, men who self-identify as women on the grounds of self-identification alone, then there will almost certainly be applications from clever and ruthless paedophiles who will present themselves as women purely and simply in order to access girl children.

When women say this, we are accused of being hysterical and transphobic (even though we're talking about men pretending to think they're women, rather than men who actually think they're women) and derided as pearl clutchers, as though there has never been a case of a predatory male having gone to enormous, astounding, life-changing lengths, just to be able to get sexual access to a child. Suddenly all those men who pretended to believe they had a vocation to the priesthood, or to teaching, who married women so that they could rape their nieces, who fostered children so that they could abuse them, who went into social work so that they could exert power over their victims, we're supposed to forget all about them and not believe that a man would pretend to believe himself to be a woman, to get access.

Predatory paedophiles have been known to do practically anything to gain access to victims. And yet self-identification is being accepted as enough evidence that men are really women and we're all bigots if we raise common-sense objections.

Nothing shows so clearly how shallow our commitment to protecting children is, than this crap. Or indeed, how much power men have. Or the power of groupthink.

Good night.

It's really not about whether girls and boys together is good or bad. Obviously in many instances it's brilliant.

It's about not having a choice.

Girls might very well welcome a trans-girl into their midst for the benefit of everyone. But should they not wish it, they will have no say.

There was a poster on here who told of a boy who suddenly identified as a trans-girl at her daughter's school. This boy was allowed to use the girls' locker room. He was a known 'groper' to the girls. But the school, in an effort not to fall foul of the discrimination rulings, bent over backwards.

The girls were told if they weren't happy they would have to use the staff facilities. One by one the girls started to use them. Because they had no say, no voice. And no choice.

And what makes this situation even more muddled, that even if he was a groper, as the law stands he is still allowed access. Because there is no ruling that says only trans-girls or trans-women who won't look, stare, smirk are allowed in. He might be told not to do it but that is all.

I'm so fortunate that when I was a woman volunteer for Cubs and later Scouts, I didn't encounter any of the nasty biggotry shown here. Really, really nasty.

The best scout leader I ever met was a gay man. Fortunately, in Scouting at least, he was seen as such and the parents thought he was fucking brilliant. He took his partner to the County Jamboree and it was great for the children to see it.

Some of the highlights include.

Bibblewanda
Sausagefarmer
PrawnofthePatriarchy
MercyMyJewels
Datun
picklemepopcorn

it is about the complete erasure of women.as a sex.

If a man who claims to 'feel' like a woman starts with guides and joins in the women stuff, caring for my child. HE will have a shock!

Misandry is not a thing so no
Women ... are oppressed by men. It is absolutely normal to fear and mistrust your oppressors.

Sexual abuse/assault is going to be on the rise if this bullshit carried on

As PPs have said, men who want access to children will do a great deal more than claim to be women.

Men should not be girl guide leaders nor girl guides.

Men need to accept that they don't get to define what a woman is.

I would not want an adult male around my dd however he identifies.

Are there many people identifying as trans-who have a highly dubious sexual motive. Yes. Very definitely.

You must be on the side of the males. Always. Otherwise you are being mean and nasty.

No one is frightened of being followed home by a lesbian, ffs.

I am. I'm beautiful

Personally I don't even allow my kids to be weighed at school as that tells them they can be with a couple of strangers in a room because they have scales.

------------------

BertrandRussell
So do people think that there is no need to prepare the other guides for the arrival of a transgirl in their group?

I think there is a need.

I'm not sure if you're talking about transgirls or transwomen. I'm not sure it matters, but if there's a fair chance they 'look' different then yes.

You're talking to children. When was a primary teacher, my class and I had plenty of talks about disabilities before a girl in a wheelchair joined us. I'm not saying trans is a disability, of course, but that teaching children about differences is important.

Bibble

why is there still this insistence that boys are not allowed to join Guides?

Bigotry. Simple. Scouts is an inclusive organisation though.

Hellothereitsme

This 1% are changing the law for the 33m girls and women. Just not right. Why do they have so much influence? Is it trendy, lefty?

Like 2.5% gays changing the law? Yeah. Fuck them and their minority.

Datun

Girls might very well welcome a trans-girl into their midst for the benefit of everyone. But should they not wish it, they will have no say.

How about a lesbian? Or an Asian? Do they get to vote?

------------------------

Can I ask what people would say to their daughter should she want to join Scouts or Cubs?

"No, that's only for boys"

"No, it's run by a man and they rape you and want to see your vagina"

"You can do anything you want. Don't let the oppressive patriarchy get you down."

How abouts if it's about joining a U14 football team. Predominantly boys, male coach, not specifically for males.

ail, scouting didn't include women and girls to be inclusive, it was because their numbers were dropping and they wouldn't have been able to continue as an organisation without them, particularly women as volunteer leaders and helpers.

The best scout leader I ever met was a gay man. Fortunately, in Scouting at least, he was seen as such and the parents thought he was fucking brilliant. He took his partner to the County Jamboree and it was great for the children to see it.

Great! I'm sure there are some amazing gay guide leaders too.

Brilliant post Basil

Ail
You have posted a pile of ramblings. WE can read the thread, I suggest you do. Read Basil's post in particular

Agree with jelly

They didnt do it because 'yay girls'

Everytime a thread starts on girls in scouting there are masses of posts from unhappy parents thinking that it should just be for girls

Also scouting and guiding ran as single sex for years, then scouting HAD to accept girls and that makes Guiding 'bigoted'?

Oops

Just for boys obviously....

Outabout, it's strange to say that you are being discriminated against because you are a man. I understand that you mean that you cannot join that group because you are male. I am unsure of the official meaning of discrimination, but being unable to join a group because it is not for your benefit seems an odd thing to describe as discrimination. I assume you mean simply that you are unable to join? For example, I'm a white woman. I wouldn't expect to be able to join a group for black women, where they can discuss the issues they face because they are black women. I don't experience these issues (racism) but believe that they do. I wouldn't describe myself as being discriminated against because it is not for my benefit. I could make a group just for white women if I wanted to, but that would actually be discriminatory, because white people are the people in power in our society. Does that make sense? I am not held back by being white. It is beneficial,in the same way that being male is beneficial.

Nobody doubts that the leaders and volunteers in these groups are lovely people who work really hard for the kids. But, since you are male, you don't really understand what it's like to grow up as a woman. I don't hate individual men. I have a husband and sons, male friends. All the rest. I treat people as people. I hate the way our society tells men and women they are to behave. Women are the weak ones in that situation. The first time I saw a penis against my will was at the age of 6. That was an older boy. The first time I saw an adult's penis against my will, I was 11. At 11 I was wearing age 7 clothes. I was the brightest child in my class. I didn't ever put my hand up. Putting your hand up meant being mocked by the boys. They were the cool, funny ones. Everything you said was fodder for their unimaginable wit. If I was forced to interact with them, (specifically remember being told to ask a boy for a rubber in art because I didn't have one, and I knew whT was coming), I was told things such as 'go away and talk to me when you've grown tits'. I had my bum slapped hard enough to leave a bruise. Comments every time I bent over. A boy following me and cornering me, telling me the things he wanted to do to me as his friends looked on an laughed. A man on a bus told me I had blow job lips and requested one, loudly. Everybody looked the other way. This was all before the age of about 13. Girls are not sat down and told that they won't be taken seriously, or that they are not as good as boys. Adults do not say that sort of thing to you. You learn it for yourself in the behaviours of everybody around you. I developed an eating disorder at 17, because I was so desperate to be pretty. I already only weighed 8 stone, but I knew that prettiness and thinness was very important. Nobody told me those things, they were all around me. If you haven't grown up with the threat of sexual violence, which seems to be socially accepted, then it isn't obvious to you.

Mercy

I can read too.

I agree, most of them are bigoted ramblings. They're quotes though.

With regard to Basils' well written post,

Using the term people instead of man in that context, is refusing to name the problem.

So, by inference, the problem is 'man'?

Men like Ian Huntley, take up with naieve women with low self-esteem in jobs where they work with children, in order to gain access to those children.

Are you actually suggesting Maxinne Carr is a poor woman / victim?

there will almost certainly be applications from clever and ruthless paedophiles who will present themselves as women purely and simply in order to access girl children

Will there? What is this based on? Huntly?

I'm sure there are some amazing gay guide leaders too.

But probably afraid to come out, based on evidence shown here!

-----------------------

Will any of you answer as to what you would tell your daughter who wanted to join Scouts?