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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Some one at the Home Office hasn't thought this through properly

326 replies

liberia03 · 14/01/2017 09:04

Wondering if we could have a compassionate thread about UK mothers being told by they may have to leave the country, despite having brought up families here.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/dutchwoman-resident-in-uk-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

OP posts:
BBCNewsRave · 14/01/2017 20:28

Pencils Yes, I considered voting leave for similar reasons, but eventually voted remain, again for similar reasons.

But my point was in response to a PP who seemed to think anyone who voted leave voted wholeheartedly for every possible facet of everything Brexit, whilst ignoring the fact that remain voters also voted for every facet of the status quo. It it a very complicated thing, oversimplified into a yes/no vote.

And to the PPs saying "Well, what did they think would happen?" re deportations - deporting people already living here is different from preventing new people moving here. Retrospective decisions (not sure what the right term is, sorry) like that are grossly unfair to say the least. Not that is was necessarily wise to assume the distinction would be made in practice...
I'm not massively happy about free movement but only because it seems very unfair that people from certain countries can just move here, whilst people from other countries can't. I think the immigration rules should be pretty standard across the board. Although again, whilst Brexit might in theory help with that, in the current climate it seemed quite obvious it actually wouldn't (well I suppose it might makes things equal but not by improving migration rules for non-EU citizens).

Elendon can you point out to me when MN was on fire regarding staying within the union? Say, 2011?

I don't understand what you're getting at? Confused

TheMartians The idea that Brits have recreated whole villages, where they can speak English and find some proper English tea, isn't news. You don't find that in the uk with any nationality.

Erm - really? There definitely seems to be concentrations of certain nationalities in specific areas, with shops selling goods that you might find in their country of birth. I live in one! Ok not taking over a whole village if you mean entirely, but doesn't Europe have quite a few empty/half-empty villages (historically people moving to cities) whereas we just don't have that kind of vacuum in the UK?

I know what you mean about integration in general though. Its the main reason I chose not to move abroad - I couldn't have done it without the western immigrant community so it didn't seem right to do it at all.

SilentBatperson · 14/01/2017 20:36

And to the PPs saying "Well, what did they think would happen?" re deportations - deporting people already living here is different from preventing new people moving here. Retrospective decisions (not sure what the right term is, sorry) like that are grossly unfair to say the least. Not that is was necessarily wise to assume the distinction would be made in practice...

Your last sentence is the key one, I think.

There was nothing on the ballot to suggest that people already here who hadn't become British would be able to stay, nor that British people in the EU could. Anyone who assumed, that's on them.

However, I think it's better to focus on what can be done now. Remainers and moderate Leavers can find common ground. On many issues, we have more in common with each other than either of us do with Hard Leave.

CheshireChat · 14/01/2017 21:47

I'm another that's really worried about what's going to happen, especially as I'm SAHM and have only been here for about 3 years and DP doesn't speak my language as an added extra.

Thing is, my home country messed up my EHIC and I had no real reason to fight the decision especially as it would've been complicated and costly due to me needing to travel to London.

How can I even plan ahead really? Do I go alone? Do I take DS with me to my mum's unsafe house? If not, who watches him over here? If DP leaves his job, we'll have no income and my mum wouldn't be able to help us that much. Would I manage to get a job over there quickly enough?!

We'll just have to save whatever we can (not a lot, definitely not enough) and go from there...

CheshireChat · 14/01/2017 21:48

Obviously planning ahead in case worse comes to worst, not about the health card thingy.

steppemum · 14/01/2017 21:49

to whoever said - you just need your EHIC as your health insurance
RTFT - you cannot get one once you have left your home country

to whoever said if your dh has worked for 5 years here he is fine
except he is self emplyed and earns very little as he works for a charity. We have a very low income, which is our choice and we are fine with that. We own our own home mortgage free, and it is pretty energy efficient, so our income needs are low, and we spend littel.
We don't even come close.

and to whoever said it is EU rule not UK with regard to helath insurance - not true. The UK could have chosen to see the NHS as the equvalent. It was their choice how to apply it.

MarciaBlaine · 14/01/2017 21:52

There was nothing on the ballot to,suggest anything at all. Anyone who voted leave has voted for the complete unknown. It make me beyond angry that a group of people who were mostly and relatively unaffected get to fuck up my life.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2017 21:57

Leave voters were conditioned and encouraged to 'take control' and form their own opinions about what leaving meant. This was an exploitation by experienced political campaigners and it is not something that I actively blame on Leavers. Nor do I think them stupid in any way. Who doesn't want hope? There is a human need for hope that we hold on to right up until death.

It was also very difficult against that for the Remain campaign to get people excited and have confidence about 'an on balance' argument for Remain especially when the EU DOES have a lot of flaws even if you are an ardent pro-European.

The leave campaign was a hugely positive, hopeful and optimistic beast. Of course that's how people would like to see the future. Good people act in good faith. The trouble is that politicians don't always.

Remain conversely was trying to promote something that was tainted by this idea of corruption, the disaster of the greek crisis and the migrant crisis. How do make something positive out of that? Its easy to vote against it quite reasonably and logically.

There are positive things in the EU, but its a much tougher sell especially to people who are actively looking for a positive and hopeful future. This is a quality that is not a bad one. And the negative possibilities and practicalities of Brexit merely fell through the cracks of a desperate need for hope.

Nationalism has a history of being sold as the cure and solution to every mans problems. People by nature want things to get better and if everything else has failed will be sway by it. It is not because they are bad people themselves. They just see the need and case for change.

I think the real failing was always the inability of Remain to promote liberal ideas of democracy and human rights as being central to the European Project in the right way. How NI was thrown under the bus with that in mind, utterly disgusts me, and it utterly disgusts me how Theresa May's government has continued to do that since the result. Equally so, the situation of EU nationals living here and British Citizens living in the EU. They fell through the cracks.

In terms of 'what do they expect would happen if they ?' the simple answer is they expected that things would improve both economically and socially. Its in every study about how people voted it comes back to this optimism and positivity about the leave vote. They did not vote to get poorer. They did not vote to kick people out. They just voted for things to 'get better' somehow. Remain voters totally fail to understand this properly most of the time.

So when Remain voters go on about how bad Brexit is, they are seen to be trying to take away that hope and that optimism. No wonder it gets such a hostile reaction.

Immigration has created problems but it is not the root cause of them. It goes much deeper. No one has adequately challenged this view. They just drag out rather dry statistics over how money immigrants bring to the country or how many doctors we need. But there is no alternative explanation of why things are like they are - in part because they requires an addition from all three of the major parties about how they have all contributed to fucking the country up over the last 25 years in some way. No one want to take responsibility for that, and instead just want to point the finger of blame.

'Mayism' so far has been characterised as a strategic placing of blame on one group and then the next and the next to shift focus from who is really responsible. It has happened with how May is handling Brexit, but its perhaps easier to see in how May shift blame from patients miss using the service, to gps, to the head of the NHS etc etc on a daily basis.

If May manages to get away with blaming the collapse of the NHS on everyone but herself, she'll do the same for everything else she touches.

I don't know what the answer is, because no one is holding anyone to account properly. The press and politicians are all intent on their point scoring rather than focusing on the issues and actually working - and working together - to improve things in the national interest.

Reality will hit eventually. It has to, simply because every single person who voted to Leave has a different vision of what it means because that's what they were supposed to do and were encouraged to do. It therefore can not ever match reality, but its a fiction and people will slowly have hopes crushed bit by bit. Many Leavers in their heart know this to an extent, but that's not the point. They want to believe and have hope. Who doesn't? Equally Remainers really don't want to crush anyone's dream, they just want an honest and frank conversation on what is going to happen now. Something no one is willing to do on the leave side, because to do so is to give up on the dream.

The only question remains who will be blamed for the removal of the dream - will it be those who are charged with delivering Brexit or those who have merely pointed out the reality of the situation. That's ultimately anyone who does not agree or support Brexit wholeheartedly and without question because its a belief system rather than a policy.

I fear that what happens in the US in the next few months has the potential to make people start to realise how precious those ideals that the EU were founded are. I hope I am wrong, but I think things will get very nasty there.

Its so depressing. No one can ever really 'win'. And I wish people from both sides would stop seeing it all in such Black and White terms. We ALL lost the referendum.

GraceGrape · 15/01/2017 17:46

I also think that TM doesn't give a shit about Brits in Europe TBH.
They are mostly retired, would just come back to the uk with little waves or changes on the uk POV. Still the same pensions to pay but at least they would stay in the UK rather to being spent abroad.

If the predominantly working-age EU citizens currently residing in Britain are exchanged for the predominantly retirement-age British citizens currently residing in the EU, this could have quite a big impact on the NHS!

GraceGrape · 15/01/2017 17:47

Sorry, bold fail...

exaltedwombat · 15/01/2017 17:54

It is pointless to start a crusade over anything reported in either the Guardian or the Daily Mail. They don't exactly LIE...

user1481838270 · 15/01/2017 17:56

If the predominantly working-age EU citizens currently residing in Britain are exchanged for the predominantly retirement-age British citizens currently residing in the EU, this could have quite a big impact on the NHS!

The ratio of retired to working will increase and this will have a major long term impact on the NHS which is already bursting at the seams.

blaeberry · 15/01/2017 18:00

I'm sure the home office has thought it through but it is a bargaining chip just as uk citizens in the EU are. It is a strong bargaining chip and you don't give those away for no reason especially when the EU have given no assurances for UK citizens either. Hopefully, it will be dealt with quickly when negotiations actually start.

It seems to me to be a real problem - everyone calls for transparency (understandably) but setting out the UK minimum position automatically makes that the absolute maximum the eu will offer...

user1481838270 · 15/01/2017 18:06

blaeberry, it's not a bargaining chip. You are clearly deluded if you belive it is.

prh47bridge · 15/01/2017 18:19

blaeberry, it's not a bargaining chip. You are clearly deluded if you belive it is

The EU clearly disagrees with you. They have refused to guarantee the right of UK citizens to remain resident in the EU. They have made it clear that this is a matter for negotiation.

AtomHeart · 15/01/2017 18:28

So, how are they going to make everyone leave? Think of how the public sector is already under resourced. Where will they find all the staff to deal with it and what will happen to society as people vacate. Making people leave sounds preposterous and unmanageable.

CaliforniaHorcrux · 15/01/2017 18:28

If you've got British kids I would be incredibly surprised if you ended up having to leave. Non EU nationals stay on that basis, either inside or outside the immigration rules

Sometimes but not always. My youngest has a Moroccan father and we had to divorce because Theresa May as HS introduced her minimum income rule for spouse visas and last year she doubled the threshold

Tryingtosaveup · 15/01/2017 18:29

No one is trying to break up families. That is a lie. There may well be deportations, I don't know, but whole families could move abroad. No one would hold one half of a family here and refuse to let them move with their EU partner.
Families being torn apart is fallacy.
I am not at all surprised by this.
Immigration is too high.

Rowenag · 15/01/2017 18:32

Quick question - I am British and working. My partner is Portuguese and we have a child. We have been living together for 12 years. He does the childcare and I support the family. Should we be worried? Should we get married? Would that help or just wait and see?

DJBaggySmalls · 15/01/2017 18:33

Tryingtosaveup someone with a medical condition such as Parkinsons cannot move abroad where they cannot afford treatment.
This will split families. Dont pretend it wont. Own what you voted for.

TuckersBadLuck · 15/01/2017 18:44

Tryingtosaveup

No one is trying to break up families. That is a lie. There may well be deportations, I don't know, but whole families could move abroad. No one would hold one half of a family here and refuse to let them move with their EU partner.
Families being torn apart is fallacy.

You've not thought that through have you?

Let's imagine a British man with a British child and an EU wife who's a SAHM.

If the mother is refused residency in the UK then where do you suggest that the 'whole family' would be entitled to live?

I'm not saying that deportations are likely to happen but your "it'll be fine" theory is ridiculous. They'd be relying on the EU country allowing the (now unemployed) British husband and children residency based on the wife's nationality.

OCSockOrphanage · 15/01/2017 18:49

With apologies to all those who are dependent on any form of benefits, or reliant on NHS, but who are not British born........ If you have come here to work and bring up a family, and have not complied with the regulations, then you have only one place to lay the blame: your own doorstep.

NHS treatment free at delivery is unsustainable. Your broken arm would be treated faster and more efficiently, in most European countries than in the UK. But in France, for example, you would be asked to pay, UPFRONT, a consultation change of about 25 euros, plus 75 euros for the painkillers and splints, plus another 60 euros for the X-ray you needed. You would then claim from your insurance company and in two months or so, you would receive a refund for most of those costs, less about 45 euros. If you think that's unacceptable, don't ever leave the comfort zone of the NHS.

I am not sure who is deluding who in this argument: France, the Netherlands and Germany have big elections this year, and as I read the runes, all three countries' electorates are going to put the boot in to the Brussels ENA bureaucracy; Italy is nearly as disenchanted. The EU as it has been is looking like a dinosaur. I do not believe it can survive, and certainly not with economically weak regions acting like they are equal partners. I know this will be controversial.

Lynnm63 · 15/01/2017 18:50

If you don't like this take it up with Junker et al. They are the ones playing hardball. If they say our citizens can stay you can be damn sure T May will give EU citizens at least as good a deal.

SilentBatperson · 15/01/2017 18:52

If you have come here to work and bring up a family, and have not complied with the regulations, then you have only one place to lay the blame: your own doorstep.

No. They and the rest of us are perfectly entitled to also place blame on a state that didn't bother enforcing its own rules, and therefore effectively misled people. You will not remove the Home Office's culpability for this situation.

blaeberry · 15/01/2017 18:55

user.... it would only not be a bargaining chip if both sides didn't care, which clearly they do. Why on earth do you think it wouldn't be? Free movement of people is one of the EU's biggest requirements (though currently it is actually free movement of labour).

TuckersBadLuck · 15/01/2017 18:59

If you don't like this take it up with Junker et al. They are the ones playing hardball.

It's the UK who unilaterally (and unlawfully) changed the rules on permanent residency, not the EU. And that decision dates back to 2011 so it's nothing to do with Brexit.

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