Some one at the Home Office hasn't thought this through properly

[liberia03]

Wondering if we could have a compassionate thread about UK mothers being told by they may have to leave the country, despite having brought up families here.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/dutchwoman-resident-in-uk-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

My dh is in the same position as the woman in the article.
We live here, have 3 kids here and unitl the rules were changed, he had the right to remain, as an EU citizen.
As I understand it from previous threads, the rule about private health insurance has been applied retrospectively, so you are basically buggered.

Until now, there was no reason for dh to apply. If he had British citizenship he would have to give up his Dutch passport, and that didn't seem to be a good choice for many reasons. EU laws mean his right to live and work here was protected. Under Brexit, it is unlikely that I would get the right to go and live and work in Holland. So our family would be forced to split up.

I have recently been a referee for a friend who is from Ukraine and is applying for citizenship here. I have walked with her during this process for the last 6 years. It has cost them thousands and thousands of pounds. This is the last step, and this step alone for her family is £10,000.
The irony is, even if we had the money, dh wouldn't qualify due to the helath insurance thing. So, my friend, with no links here at all will become a British citizen, because they like it here and work here. And my dh, married to a Brit with 3 kids, and having lived and worked here for years is buggered.

well done leave voters. So glad Annie that you are sure it will all work out. I have never seen such a patronising line on mn as your "try not to worry"

forms are being sent out to EU citizens living in this country

No they are not. This story came about because the couple asked their MP to get clarification on an issue. And to repeat, the government has already said that it does not want to expel EU citizens living in the UK but it cannot guarantee their right to stay until the EU agrees that UK citizens living in the EU have the right to stay. That is, unfortunately, the way these negotiations work. The chances of the EU refusing to agree to this are minimal. The government specifically asked them to agree to this before formal negotiations begin. The EU refused.

the rule about private health insurance has been applied retrospectively, so you are basically buggered

The rule is one that has been set by the EU, not the UK. An EHIC from any EEA state other than the UK that covers the requirement for health insurance. Provided you can get an EHIC you do NOT have to take out private health insurance.

Except that the UK CHOSE not to ask eu citizens to have that insurance.

When I moved here, I had no job and was planning to get married. No one ever asked me about any health insurance or how I was going to support myself.
If this was part of 'things that you need to be able to live in the uk', I assume that would have been reviewed when I registered to get my HMRC and NHS number.
This never happened meaning this was no compulsory. Unlike what happens in Spain etc etc where you have to prove that you have xxx before getting access to the NHS for example.

Our circumstances are more fortunate than some, OH is Danish but has always worked.

Still so many unanswered questions though which makes planning for the future difficult.

OH could get UK citizenship, but we may end up in a position where we couldn't move back to his home country. I had a great job offer there but too much of a leap right now when we don't know what the future holds. I don't know anything about what happens with pensions and the like.

I personally hope the British abroad in EU countries are treated with the same contempt that this Government and those who voted Brexit treat those EU foreigners.

Why? What have my children and I done to deserve that?

PR, EHIC is for temporary visits to EU nations, it doesn't cover people who move to the country they need treatment in. This belief that it covers EU citizens no matter what isn't right. (As many Brits find out when they move overseas but don't bother to check out the facts. People in Spain have been refused treatment for conditions not considered temporary.)

What I am finding I stressing is that every single time I have asked Leavers who were very vocal about the fact THIS IS A GOOD THING, no one has ever answered to my question as to what I am supposed to say to my britsih husband and britsih children when I will be deported and our family split.

Because you see this will never affect British people because they won't deported. And British people can never be married to foreigners nor can you have parents who aren't British.
But suddenly having to explain to people who ARE British that it's normal that they will be so affected is much more unsavoury.
And no one seem to have an answer to that one.

That's the reason why I am insisting so much on the fact that many British people will be affected.
Because it's easy to have a go at foreigners to not have planned ahead/got their citizenship and what not.
Much harder to have a go at British people to not have planned their own spouse and children would kicked out of their own country....

It actually enrages me this crap and nonsense about 'I voted for leave and this isn't what I wanted.'

Yes, why on earth would you vote for something so nebulous. It never ceases to amaze me that this could have happened.

I mean, if the vote had been, "leave which will mean we will try to negotiate an EEA arrangement", or "leave, and we will trade with the EU on the basis of WTO rules", or whatever, then I could see you might vote for that (not that I would, but I wouldn't vote conservative, but understand that others do actually approve of their policies). But to vote for "leave and we'll sort out what that actually means later"? I don't understand how any thinking person could have voted for that.

The rule is one that has been set by the EU, not the UK.

Not quite true. The UK would have the option of waiving the private insurance requirements should we so wish, and indeed effectively did so in practice if not law for a number of years. This caused no problems with the EU or EU law. Member states aren't allowed to impose regulations beyond what EU law specifies (though the UK has been giving that a go with some of the Surinder Singh stuff, for example) but are at liberty to be more lenient than EU law requires should they so wish. As evidenced by the fact that we were, for quite a while.

No they are not. This story came about because the couple asked their MP to get clarification on an issue.

But there has been at least one EU citizen told, wrongly because the person in question could potentially have become a qualified person in some other way, that they needed to leave the UK. There's a standard letter HO often send out when refusing applications, that tells people they have no right to be in the UK and should make preparations to go. It's quite possible that they sent it out here.

The EU can't guarantee the rights of British citizens living in the EU because it doesn't have the authority to do so. The rules regarding third country citizens are the remit of individual countries NOT the EU.

steppemum if your DH has been working in the UK for 5 years + he should be able to get a permanent residence card in his own right. He also shouldn't need the health insurance.

EHIC is for temporary visits to EU nations, it doesn't cover people who move to the country they need treatment in

Nonetheless, if you supply a copy of an EHIC with an application for a PR card that satisfies the requirement for health insurance and will permit you to get a permanent residence card. The fact that it may not actually cover you for treatment is irrelevant.

The whole thing terrifies me. We've been abroad 10 years, I have built up pension rights in 3 EU countries and have no fucking clue what the future holds. I don't want to take another nationality - I am exercising my rights quite legally to live and work in the EU - but don't see any other option really. I ideally wanted to come back to UK, but this complete fuck up of a situation has me in a complete tailspin. It is making me ill to be fair.

What happens to British citizens in the EU after we leave will be up to the individual countries concerned. The problem is than many British citizens living in the EU are retired and not necessarily integrated into local communities. The worry is that there is unlikely to be a major public outcry if they are asked to leave

In contrast, EU citizens living in the UK have usually have come here to work and are more likely to be in a relationship or be the parents of children who are British. Asking EU citizens here to leave will have a far greater societal impact.

The signs are at the moment it will be a hard Brexit.

"What happens to British citizens in the EU after we leave will be up to the individual countries concerned."

I think it is more likely to be decided by the 27, in the negotiations between their EU and the rUK.

many people think that it will be a reciprocal treaty.

Theresa's definition of the governments objectives have not been announced, except that vaguely "Brexit means Brexit" so perhaps she intends to have no right to remain.

I don't believe the treaty will give British citizens any guarantees unless Theresa May campaigns heavily for it. She is unlikely to do so.

Hissy What the 'we' did vote was a blanket YES to whatever OUT meant.

Yup. And what the remain voters did was to vote for a blanket YES to whatever IN meant.

Such a complicated issue attempted to squeeze into a simple yes/no question.

No doubt if reamain had won and this was a thread about some different EU issue being problematic, you'd say "Oh but we didn't vote for that".

[FWIW I voted remain although not wholeheartedly.]

Thing is, at least some of us voted Remain at least partially because we didn't want millions of people to be stuck in the entirely predictable limbo that would ensue if we did vote Leave without any idea of what might happen to them. Both Brits abroad and EEA folks here.

Not quite - the home office have stated that the EHIC cannot be used as evidence of private medical insurance if you intend to permanently live in the UK. It's going to end up waiting until a case gets through all the various courts though to discover if they can change that requirement.

user I agree with you.
I also think that TM doesn't give a shit about Brits in Europe TBH.
They are mostly retired, would just come back to the uk with little waves or changes on the uk POV. Still the same pensions to pay but at least they would stay in the UK rather to being spent abroad.

And YY about the fact that a lot of Brits in the EU aren't integrated in the same way that eu citizens are in the uk.
The idea that Brits have recreated whole villages, where they can speak English and find some proper English tea, isn't news. You don't find that in the uk with any nationality.

BBCNewsRave, can you point out to me when MN was on fire regarding staying within the union? Say, 2011? Because I can't find anything on the search engines.

There is a method where if you can prove that your previous country of residence would have paid for your treatment under reciprocal rules for any treatment by the NHS, then that would possibly count as evidence (no records of this being successful so far to the best of my knowledge). This would probably be peoples best chance - as long as they either have never used the NHS, or if they have, have evidence that payment occurred from the original country. The home office aren't making it easy and really are looking for reasons to reject, rather than reasons to approve.

whatever IN meant

No, we knew what 'in' meant, it was what we already had. It was voting for the status quo.

I was tempted to vote leave because I'm a vaper and watching the tobacco products directive go through was a real education on all that is wrong with the EU and the way decisions are made. It's not democratic and it is corrupt.

I voted remain because I trust our govt. (successive govts. on both sides) even less on stuff like human rights, the environment & employment rights and because 'leave' clearly had no plan at all and because the leave campaign was permeated by thinly veiled racism.