Some one at the Home Office hasn't thought this through properly

[liberia03]

Wondering if we could have a compassionate thread about UK mothers being told by they may have to leave the country, despite having brought up families here.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/dutchwoman-resident-in-uk-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

No one is trying to break up families. That is a lie. There may well be deportations, I don't know, but whole families could move abroad. No one would hold one half of a family here and refuse to let them move with their EU partner.

So you mean that not only are they happy to deport EU citizens but they are also happy to deport BRITISH citizens too?
Because been forced to go away from your own country is exactely that, you realise that?

Besides that is even wo starting to talk on how practically that would work.

Would they Ieave to the country of the EU citizen? As in, do you mean that it's OK for the Uk to deport eu citizens or not accept them but you expect
Other eu countries to accept Brits in their own country because they are married and have dcs with one of their nationals? You don't expect them to appy the same rule and not to accept British people to stay in that EU country like the uk doesn't accept EU nationals?

Or do you expect them to move somewhere else? Places where one person might well be allowed to settle but not the other. Somewhere where age limits might be in place.

A lot of people have been saying that the uk should be stricter re rules for immigration, stating that we should be doing like Australia etcetc. And that's what everyone else is doing anyway.
But that also means it's hard to be able to immigrate, even for a brit or for another eu national.
Somthey might well NOT be able to do it.

Which then takes us back to ... families being ripped apart.
That IS the consequenc of such ruling. There is no way out of it. Some families will be destroyed and some brits adults and children will loose their spouse/mum/dad.

And it changes the rules VERY QUIETLY so that very few people were even aware about it.

Why was that, I wonder......
Part of a plan to make life harder to eu nationals, much betfore Brexit maybe?
You do know for example, that even before Brexit, eu nationals weren't allowed some benefits even if they have spent their whole working life here, paying taxes etc...?

I wonder......Part of a plan to make life harder to eu nationals, much betfore Brexit maybe
Yes it was 2015 when some of these rules came in, under Cameron's watch but Teresa May in Home Office. Pre emptive.

Martians it wasn't so much that it was done quietly but that it didn't really matter before Brexit. EU citizens had (and so far still have) the right to remain without seeking any confirmation so nobody gave it a second thought.

The EU clearly disagrees with you. They have refused to guarantee the right of UK citizens to remain resident in the EU. They have made it clear that this is a matter for negotiation.

If the predominantly working-age EU citizens currently residing in Britain are exchanged for the predominantly retirement-age British citizens currently residing in the EU, this would be a bigger problem for the UK, particularly the NHS, than it would be for the EU.

Only in the xenophobic minds of UKippers/RedTops - where retired British immigrants are referred to as 'expats' and are by default good whereas working immigrants 'Johnny Foreigner' from the EU are just bad - could this perceived to be a strong bargaining chip for the UK.

It's clearly not.

I read that at the current rate they are able to process the residencies it will take 47 years to process everybody here now who is entitled to it! I was shocked that you bacically have to surrender your passport for 6 months as they won't accept copies, even notarised ones. I couldn't be without mine for that length of time.
So I don't think there's any point in trying to get ahead of the game by sorting out residency now, wait for the shambles to be acknowledged and some sort of plan put in place. The govt can't deport all those people, they simply don't have the resources. It would completely clog the Home Office and probably bring the legal system to a halt with challenges as well. At a time when they will also be dealing with minor matters like re-issuing all British passports, negotiating trade deals with 190 countries, repatriating tens of thousands of pieces of legislation etc, ad infinitum. It has not been thought through.

I was shocked that you bacically have to surrender your passport for 6 months as they won't accept copies, even notarised ones. I couldn't be without mine for that length of time.

This information is out of date. You can take your passport into a local office now and get it checked on the spot and handed back to you.

It's not so much that it hasn't been thought through.

Little or no thought went into in at all.

"What's the plan, Theresa?"
Brexit means Brexit
"Will we have access to the single Market?"
Brexit means Brexit
Will EU citizens be allowed to stay here?
Brexit means Brexit

Who knows what it means?

I was born outside the EU.
I lived here on ILR status for 25 years after the age of 18
at no stage was I EVER EVER told to have any sort of FORRINER cover

I have an overseas NHS number and a UK NI number, I've never ever hidden where I'm from

the Home Office are being gratuitously vindictive now that their xenophobic ex boss is top dog

the costs of visa for the UK are the highest in the world (over £200 if I'd ever let my ILR slide)
becoming British cost me nearly £2000 despite being married to a Brit, having British Children and having paid tax here for 20 years by then.

No one is trying to break up families. That is a lie. There may well be deportations, I don't know, but whole families could move abroad. No one would hold one half of a family here and refuse to let them move with their EU partner.
Are you really as thick as this post suggests? Or is it the usual Brexiter arrogance and hypocrisy leading you to think that we can deport the furriners while every other EU country will welcome British citizens with open arms? The more of this sort of stupidity I hear, the more angry I get that the public was allowed to vote on this issue at all.

AFAIK, the only place in Scotland you can take your passport in to be checked is Glasgow, so not precisely local for some people.

Aberdeen
Edinburgh
Dunfermline
Hamilton
Rutherglen
Bathgate

www.gov.uk/government/publications/nationality-checking-service-scotland/scotland-nationality-checking-services

Seems it's different for European passports: www.gov.uk/government/collections/european-passport-return-service

How can that be right?

How can there possibly be fewer offices equipped to deal with EU passports than passports from the rest of the world? The other way around would make sense.

Bonkers.

The reason is simple. Until 6 months ago, there was no need to have many offices to deal with eu passports.

tuckers if someone had told me a t the time that I needed a private health insurance because I was a SAHP or not working enough (note: nowhere in the EU agreement is there something about earning a MINIMUM wage to fulfill the treaty requirements), then inwould have been able to look at it and get organised.
Because you know, yes it costs money but I would not have wanted to break the law in some ways.

The fact it was introduced, not talked about 'because it didn't matter' is bollocks. If they introduced it, there was a reason. You don't modify things like in such a MASSIVE fashion wo a reason.
Seen that there had already been changes re what sort of benefits you can get, I suspect that the plan was the NOT talked about it but then start asking eu migrants to prove that they are staying 'according to the treaty' to be able to accès benefits or the NHS.
Did u know for example that some PCT do ask if you are an eu citizen when you are arrive at the hospital? Even though you have been referred by a GP and therefore have an NHS number etc...

Wanting to tightened the rules around eu citizens was already well in place. But wo any publicity. Was LT because they wanted to screw said 'foreigners' over or because they feared some blacklask form the eu? Who knows?....

But this means that, beside the fact that TM has a strong history of not giving a f** about foreigners, the fact everything was to be done to make things hard for eu citizens was on the go.
That means most Conservatives will be happy with that. Which also means they are not going to have a massive issue with deportations of people who have lived here for 20 years.

Who needs to think things through when you have rank bigotry on your side?

It certainly didn't happen when Greenland left. People acquired the rights of where they'd been living at the time with a transitional period added on top.

I am not sure that this makes a good comparison. Greenland is a self-governing territory which still makes up part of the Kingdom of Denmark, despite withdrawing from the EEC, as it then was. I can't imagine that there were all that many immigrants in Greenland, with the exception people from Denmark itself. It's much easier to make exceptions for small numbers. Even so, Greenland's negotiations took 3 years!

I can't go along with the idea that it's somehow the rest of the EU's fault that they won't negotiate on the status of EU citizens before A50 is invoked. The UK has wanted special term after special term and finally the rest have had enough - but we still want the rules bent in our favour.

I do think that if May had shown herself to be more willing and able to negotiate rather than lecture and harangue then she might find the rest more accommodating. I sorely wish that someone in charge of the Home Office had the guts to say that the current 85 page system is utterly stupid and have the sense to introduce something workable, but I can't see it happening - the current crop of MPs from which the Govt are drawn seem particularly supine and inept.

Excellent post at 21:57 Red.

Since the negation period has not started, it is premature to say what either party has refused.

Negotiations can start the day Theresa gives valid notice of the UK's resignation.

It's not much more than six months yet, and there is no plan to be seen.

The UK seems to be applying different rules to other EU countries. I have lived in several as a non-working wife with an EU spouse and have been automatically registered for national healthcare and education as a family member without ever having to have separate insurance.

The only groups required to have insurance in the countries I have lived in were those coming to the countries without any working or family connections

• students (if less than 1 year of study)
• self funders who just decide to relocate without working etc

It seems terribly harsh to send deportation letters to elderly people who have lived here for 30+ years by requiring documents that were never a requirement when they moved here - talk about moving the goalposts

Expats & health care:

The nhs does not pay for medical treatment, until British expats have reached official uk retirement age.
Similarly, all other EU countries refund the nhs only for their OAP citizens resident in the UK.
Until that age, expats have to either take private insurance or join the state system where they live.

I now live in Germany and the nhs will refund the German health service only after I reach age 66
Until then, I chose to continue my private health insurance (in case I have to return to the uk !). I could have applied to join the German state scheme.

Health services in other EU countries require ID for everyone, including their own citizens, because only the uk has a non-contributory basis.
All other EU countries allow each other's citizens access to their state health service on the same basis as their own citizens, after a qualifying time period, usually 12 months.
Only the UK has the extra requirement for private health insurance for some EU expats and the EU Commission started proceedings against the UK for breaking the rules (long before the referendum)
So this requirement may have to be dropped in future anyway, if the court decides it wasn't legal at the time it was brought in.

If all expats have to return to their own countries, the nhs would have to find space - GP surgeries, A&E, hospital beds - and social care would have to provide support, for the returning UK OAPs.
The EU citizens in the UK are mostly young / working age - including many nhs employees- so won't be such a burden divided between the 27 EU health services as all the OAPs returning to the nhs.

Brexit hasn't happened yet, so UK citizens still have the right to move to EU countries.

I asked in July if I needed any documentation and the German authorities said only my UK passport and that I have indefinite leave to remain in Germany, unless a future Brexit deal stops this

I had no forms to fill in.They did not ask about dependents or health insurance.

Encouraging for mixed UK/ EU families and also Remainers who may wish to move to EU countries after Brexit:

"The European Parliament's chief negotiator has confirmed that they will offer British citizens the chance to individually opt-in and remain EU citizens."

http://www.gherson.com/blog/eu-negotiators-will-offer-brits-an-individual-opt-in-to-remain-eu-citizens-chief-negotiator-confirms/

Lord Rothermere............Wolpertinger.

My nearly 81 year old mother is from Italy and has been in the UK since 1960 (married my dad in 65) She also looked into citezanship and didnt want to renounce that of her home country.

Shes spent 50 years working in factories in the UK and only retired just over a year ago.

.

big that's assuming that both adults in th family can speak the language/can find a job somewhere in the eu... which can be hard with a brit that only speaks English.
Plus the eu will struggle to cope with the return of what 2, 6 millions people.

But it is a good point. We have two years to find a job there....

Fwiw DH only speaks English and would struggle to find something there because of that.
And there are Avery few country where I could do the job I do here (regulations issues).

So even though yes it is a positive note. It's not an obvious solution for everyone