To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

[Babieseverywhere]

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

Because boys are still socialised to dominate. It's really simple.
Boys take up more space than girls, physically, verbally and in terms of the teachers' or group leaders' time. When they stop doing that maybe there will be no place for single sex groups for children.

Having a 10yr old transgirl at guides

The policy isn't restricted to 10 year olds.

It's an organisation-wide change. GGUK now accepts members of all ages, child and ADULT, who are born male.

There has been some interesting discussion on this thread. But some facts, because whether or not you agree with the policy/have an opinion on trans inclusivity, it's important to get the facts of the GG policy correct.

Firstly, this is not 'new'. This has been the GG policy for at least the last 5 years, in line with Girl Scouts USA and other WAGGGS members. The policy is now written down, and available on the GG site for parents to see, to aid transparency. No, this does not mean that parents get the right to know if a new member is trans because it's none of their business. You can view the policy, if you find it unacceptable you can choose to withdraw your daughter(s).

Age Grouping - Guiding is available to young members aged 5-25 (they can no longer be young members once they turn 26). Now, the age groups are Rainbows (5-7) Brownies (7-10) and Guides (10-14). As a rule, camping only happens in Guides, with Brownies sometimes camping but usually doing an indoor residential (pack holiday). At camp, tents are created with groups of friends or girls from the same unit (if a mixed unit camp) and usually of around the same age. So you wouldn't have a super-mixed age tent, because of privacy and understanding that 10 year olds and 14 year olds would likely have different needs and interests.

Adult (young) Members - Currently (and I say currently, because there are big changes coming in the next 3 years) Senior Section spans the ages of 14-26. This is a giant age group and again, if camping with a section that had this wide of an age gap within the unit, girls would be split according to age. So you would never get a 17/18/24 year old trans woman sharing a tent with a 14 year old. In the next 3 years, the Senior Section will be split, 14-18, and 18-26 with the older group no longer having meetings and instead taking on leadership roles.

Leaders, gender identity, facilities at camp/residentials - So currently, men and women can be members of guiding (this has been the case for a while) male-identifying members cannot be 'leaders' as they cannot take the promise (a requirement for the leadership qualification). They can be Unit Helpers and can form part of the leadership team, and they can go on residentials and camps and help at sleepovers. Women (cis or trans) can be leaders, and also go to residentials and camps. While at camp/residentials it is usual for leaders to have separate bathroom/tent/shower facilities, or if the showers/toilets are shared to attempt to use them when young members are not present. Toilets are rarely, if ever, 'open plan' so you wouldn't be able to see who was in the cubicle anyway.

So, not trying to get into the ethics of the trans debate, each to their own, but Guiding is inclusive and has been for a very long time, and they have done so on consultation with members (young and adult) so you can contact them, but it likely won't change the policy.

itsmine - do you think there is any place at all where female-only clubs or groups or spaces are acceptable? e.g. schools, networking groups, changing rooms, private clubs (similar to gentlemen's clubs), or do you think every organisation and place should be open to both sexes?

All girls (born with a vulva and able to bear young once matured) are welcome at Guides including those who think they are boys and call themselves "Bob"
Actually no. Those who think they are boys and call themselves Bob are not welcome as youth members in GG even if they were born female.
Female gender (cis or trans) is what is required to be a youth member.

I agree Annie. Race is a false analogy. Women are not a privileged group in comparison to men. Discrimination against transpeople is not a structural issue like racism or sexism. I agree it may come into homophobia or disabilism.

It's also appropriating someone else's struggle. If you need to do that to make your point, you probably don't have a very good argument. But that's obvious from the start.

@loopsdefruits thank you, that is very reassuring.

Inevitably this thread has developed from an issue specifically about GG, to one about the current Trans narrative. I don't expect anyone to change their mind, belief systems are difficult, we all get evidence blindness, and just accept the evidence which affirms our own personal experience/identity. Be it, "I am liberal", so all cool, or as for me, "I have been a victim of the worst of this", so only really see that.

I guess because as pp have said this situation is a microcosm of the wider one.

Because boys are still socialised to dominate. It's really simple.
Boys take up more space than girls, physically, verbally and in terms of the teachers' or group leaders' time. When they stop doing that maybe there will be no place for single sex groups for children.

TheCountess has hit the nail on the head.

YY Countess.

@venusinscorpio

You said:
Race is a false analogy. Women are not a privileged group in comparison to men.

Could you explain that further, it was not my understanding that Racism is about the oppressed being privileged?

It's also appropriating someone else's struggle. If you need to do that to make your point, you probably don't have a very good argument. But that's obvious from the start.

No, it's not about appropriating an identity, it's about demonstrating, uncomfortable for some, comparisons.

I do hope, if it's not reassuring (because people aren't happy with the policy) that it's at least clear, I know that the GG policies can be all kinds of confusing to an 'outsider' even a parent. I hope that people can accept that all GG volunteers are required to have enhanced DBS clearance, as well as undergo training in safeguarding within the organisation :)

Ok, I understand.

But do you understand why I am so confused as to why gender appropriation is so bad, remember the woman who identified with black culture, and worked as a black activist who was sacked and vilified for being born white; yet gender, whatever that means, appropriation is liberal and brave?

Personally, I don't identify with the gender stereotype of woman, I am not happy to be paid less, defined by some by my sexual worth and so on. I am offended when a man (my husband) dresses as, what I see as a parody of what he thinks a woman is, for sexual gratification. This offends me.

Not

I wasn't talking to you. You were responding to the comment Morphene had already made. Morphene was comparing the experience of transwomen with that of black people, which is a false analogy as women as a class are not a structurally privileged group like white people as a class. They are not the oppressors in this patriarchal society. Men are.

And it is further galling on everyone of these threads, to be repeatedly told that I am wrong to be offended, that I am a bigot. That my interpretation of female is incorrect.

Thanks @loopsdefruits for the reassurance about the guides. It's not just about worries about sexual stuff, for me it's about fit and proper people, I want a guide leader to be telling my girl that she can be whoever, love whoever she wants. That she doesn't need to conform to a stereotype, if she doesn't fit in the box she doesn't need drugs or surgery. And I am not convinced that everyone affected by this issue is qualified to do that.

@venus, my apologies, sorry then! Cross post.

Clearly this is a very emotive subject for me.

I understand and agree with you that it's hypocrisy to criticise cultural appropriation like Rachel Dolezal while thinking that men's appropriation of womanhood is fine and dandy. But I don't think most of these people are carrying out any kind of carefully thought-through critical judgement. They're just a bit dim.

I want a guide leader to be telling my girl that she can be whoever, love whoever she wants. That she doesn't need to conform to a stereotype, if she doesn't fit in the box she doesn't need drugs or surgery.
We're doing our best!

You're absolutely not a bigot and no one has the right to deny your personal experience of the trans agenda.

Not I definitely get that!! I will say that Guiding isn't perfect, like with anything, there are some very good Guiding leaders/volunteers and some not so good. It is vital that volunteers don't put their own prejudices/opinions on to the girls they care for, similarly to how they shouldn't impose religious beliefs on them, or views on race. I think really, HQ makes the policies, the volunteers follow them but these kinds of policy decisions should really only impact on the program/how the meeting runs/the day-to-day stuff if they absolutely have to.

I will say that there are some really big, and really exciting, changes coming to the Guiding program (the biggest program change possibly ever) and within that there's gonna be a lot of work done to reduce the gender stereotypes that girls face (in school, work, even at home). Definitely keep an ear out for things, if you're interested, there will probably be lots of consultation happening.

You guys are lovely.

@itsmine - afaik cubs/scouts opened up to girls because of falling numbers. Guides does not have that problem.

Also, as a side note, Guiding doesn't require any 'proof' of sex/gender on signing up young members, just name and age, so a 5 year old girl starting Rainbows who "looks like a girl" and has a "girl's name" isn't going to raise any eyebrows, as we don't generally go to the bathroom with the girls or otherwise come into contact with their private parts, it's entirely possible trans girls have been part of guiding for even longer than guiding have had a policy. Unless a problem arose, nobody (not even leaders) would necessarily know.