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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be told if a boy is sleeping with the girls at girl guides camp

999 replies

Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 09:49

The guides have changed their guidance on boys attending meeting, trips and over night stays.

Previously the rule was no boys allowed.

Now all boys allowed but don't tell the girls or parents, unless the boy and his parents give permission !

There are already a massive amount of forms for attending rainbows, brownies, guides or Senior section which need signing, from permissions for photos to health and safety for activities but if a boy want to watch my 10yo undress that is ok and no one will be asking permission from my daughter or us !

How can this be legal ? Do girls have no rights in the UK in 2017 ?

Guides article online

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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user892 · 12/01/2017 11:58

user892 I'm pretty sure you have google, same as me.

I've looked and whilst I can find plenty making passing reference to it, I can't see the original study referenced. Please do you have it? Or at least know when it was published?

If you are going to make a point you might find it easier to back up arguments by being able to quote the finer points of the study, e.g. sample size, what and how were controls used etc.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/01/2017 11:58

They are separate to sleep and change

Why are they separated here, pelicantown?

RacoonBandit · 12/01/2017 11:59

They are separate to sleep and change but mix with everything else.

So how is the OP being odd? Her issues is not a boy attending but a boy mixing with the girls to shower, change and sleep.

ChocChocPorridge · 12/01/2017 11:59

If it doesnt matter, why are they separated pelicantown?

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:00

Speaknowords I believe that's the direction we're headed, but it needs to be sensibly managed and take into account high-risk situations. For example, refuges are there to provide, well, refuge from abuse which is often gendered abuse - a woman who has been raped/abused by a man in a gendered way may not feel safe sharing a refuge with men or receiving care from them; however, a man who has been raped or assaulted by his male partner may feel the same way - what should be done for him? At the moment, there is no provision for such men (not to mention precious little for women). Ideally, there would be a wide range of choices; but given the lack of funding, I would say there should be a large number of women-only refuges, a smaller number of men-only refuges, and also some individual facilities for people who don't feel instinctively safer with people of their own gender, women with older male children who might not be eligible to stay with them in a woman-only refuge, etc etc. Until gender is not such a significant factor in domestic abuse, and as long as funding is limited, pragmatism needs to be observed, whilst we continue to expand the options in a way that accommodates progress and unusual situations.

As for prison, I think that should be looked at in a pretty major way in various senses. I think prison should be there only for dangerous crimes, and other options looked at for other types of crime, as it is in Scandinavia. Obviously those convicted for violent/sexual crimes should be highly isolated and monitored, regardless of gender. Rape in male prisons is at absolutely horrifying levels - I personally don't see why we are happy to let that stand just because it's men raping men rather than men raping women. So it would surely be a better thing for criminals to be segregated based on the severity of their crimes, their mental health needs, the best course of action for their rehabilitation etc, rather than by gender - and for prisoner safety to be a real priority, heavily invested in (rather than completely disregarded in male prisons, and blithely assumed in female prisons, as is currently the case).

Hospitals, yes, I think they should be genderless as default, but patient choice should be observed in terms of caregivers, e.g. if a man wants his testicles felt by a male member of staff rather than a woman, or a woman wants a female doctor to deliver her baby, this should be accommodated wherever possible and practical - again, I'd like to think over time it will cease to be an issue as people increasingly realise what matters is that you get treated by an expert, not what junk the expert has in their trunk. I don't really see why it would make a difference to you who was in the beds around you on a mixed ward - if you want privacy, pull the curtains.

The difference between the examples you give and Girl Guides is (a) Girl Guides is totally optional - you don't get to choose whether you need refuge/go to prison/are in hospital. These are essential services, which must perforce change in line with society's changing mores - happily, these are shifting ever further (if glacially) into a more openminded, tolerant direction. But forcing people who are already vulnerable into situations they are uncomfortable with is not my agenda, not because I necessarily think their feelings of discomfort are necessarily reasonable, but because it is cruel.

and (b), Girl Guides is a children's organisation. The children are, cheesy though it may be to say, our future. It is a good thing for places where children socialise to be forward-looking, tolerant and to assume the best in children, rather than paranoically trying to 'protect' them from each other. Obviously, common sense safety measures should be in place; but by and large, children need protecting from adults, not other children. And the best way to protect children from all kinds of abuse from anyone is to raise them with confidence in their own integrity and trust in their caregivers, so they feel confident to assert and protect their boundaries and to seek help from a trusted adult if those boundaries are not being respected. Abusers thrive on secrecy and shame, be they adults or other children.

midcenturymodern · 12/01/2017 12:01

The irony is, if your daughters knew of a trans girl in their class they would probably show more understanding and compassion than some of the adults on this thread

I have 4 dcs and all have at least one trans child in their class, including my Y4 child.

I would have been the trans child if I hadn't been lucky enough to be brought up in the '80s

It's not my lack of compassion or understanding that makes me refuse to tell the generation of gnc who are coming up behind me that their bodies are wrong. It's because I'm not a misogynous homophobe. I'm not going to tell the lesbian and gay kids that they are straight kids in the wrong body and I'm not going to tell the girls to shove up and make room for boys, even if the boys tell them they have to because they are now girls with girls feelings.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/01/2017 12:04

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 12:04

Back cleaning the kitchen.

Just read briefly over the comments.

No sexual or nude hang ups at this house.

8yo DS down to 4yo dd happily play between nude and semi dressed even in winter, why don't they feel the cold !

We believe in night time parenting and cosleeping. DS happily shares a room with 10yo DD. We plan to move her as soon as she wants. But she shares more interests with her brother than her youngest sisters at present.

Noone has addressed any of my concerns which I numbered and outlined below.

Yes, as a female child, my daughter has been socialised to put men's feelings before her own. She would be very kind to a boy in her guide group but my concerns which were very girl centred still apply.

I send her to guides because it is a group of females, who share her biology and allow her to grow and learn, without interfering, talking down and mansplaining everything. So she can see a group of girls achieve things and know they did it with no male help.

OP posts:
RacoonBandit · 12/01/2017 12:05

Abusers thrive on secrecy and shame, be they adults or other children.

They also thrive on opportunity and I be damned if I agree to allow them more by giving over female only spaces.

TrickyD · 12/01/2017 12:05

YANBU
I would be appalled if my 11 year old grandaughter was forced to undress in front of anyone, other than immediate family, who has a penis.

The guidelines do state that everyone, not just the transgendered, may request privacy and it should be provided. You should do this.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/01/2017 12:05

I do not think that is an unreasonable opinion to hold and I really don't see how holding that opinion means I lack compassion and understanding. Can you explain your statement please

Funny how no one has compassion and understanding for girls who just want a bit of privacy and place to explore their selves, isn't it?

Girls don't have a lot of power in this world and they face many issues as embodied females that males simply don't face. This is partly about their biology (boobs, hairy bits and periods) and partly about expectations put on them as girls and developing women. These are different issues from those embodied as male and who have a trans identity. Surely there can be some spaces where girls can explore these embodied and social differences away from males or individuals who identify as female?

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:06

And I absolutely do not condone any harrassment, abuse or death threats. However, people are entitled to protest organisations and activities they disagree with - if there are trans activists who don't like cis-only organisations because they feel they exclude them, they can protest, just as I accept women protesting remaining male-only bastions like that Scottish golf club that is still men only. But protest should always be undertaken within the limits of the law. The OPs post here could be considered a legitimate protest against the decisions of Girl Guides; I don't object to it. Nor would I object to her Tweeting her displeasure to the Guides, getting up a petition protesting the policy, even arranging a picket of the Guide Camp the policy applies to - provided this was done within the law and without harrassment of the girls or staff. I just disagree with her. Which is also allowed.

Where there are bad trans activists who are abusive online or who break the law, then they should be utterly condemned. But there are extremists on every side of every argument.

RacoonBandit · 12/01/2017 12:06

Yet why have you copied my post?

user892 · 12/01/2017 12:08

Thanks ItsAllGoingToBeFine - however I don't think that study is the one Annie refers to, as it found that those undergoing gender reassignment since 1989 were statistically no more likely to commit violent crime than their cis counterparts. They also didn't look at subgroups, e.g transgender men or transgender women.

MorrisZapp · 12/01/2017 12:10

Yanbu at all. This isn't over thinking, it's the thin end of a very scary wedge.

It's so sad that despite wanting to remain female only, the Girl Guides have caved in to this crap. It legitimises it and gives the activists credibility. Spartacus till I die.

ChocChocPorridge · 12/01/2017 12:10

Lets try a metaphor.

I have two kids. My eldest is a fairly reasonable, caring 6 year-old, my youngest is 3, so a wannabe dictator.

When we fly, they both want to sit next to the window. We'll make deals, decide one goes next to it on the way out, the other on the way back, but, without fail, the little one kicks up a fuss, and without fail, the lovely older one doesn't want to make a scene and lets the little one have the window seat.

That's not right is it? The older one should be allowed to have the window seat too. I'm not saying that the younger one should never have the window seat, just that, they are both entitled to the window seat.

Now, substitute 'transboy' for the little one, 'girl' for the older one, and 'privacy' for the window seat. That is my position.

SpeakNoWords · 12/01/2017 12:10

lelapaletute when you say "men only" or "women only" do you mean as defined by gender identity or as defined by biological sex?

In a mixed sex prison, what are your thoughts about pregnancy and babies being born in prison as a result? In your mixed prison, are all facilities mixed including showering and sleeping facilities?

Why do you think the NHS is currently committed to removing mixed sex wards? Do you have any sympathy for victims of male sexual violence in those situations who may not want to be treated or share facilities with men?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 12/01/2017 12:10

Yet why have you copied my post

I was agreeing with it (or at least with what I thought it meant (?)), although this is moving so fast that by the time I'd gathered my thoughts the board had zoomed on.

Babieseverywhere · 12/01/2017 12:11

I am hoping guides will rethink this one or at least alter the secrecy element.

Am I right in thinking this was the last girls only group in the UK ?

OP posts:
RacoonBandit · 12/01/2017 12:11

Sorry I wasn't sure it's a fast thread Grin

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:12

You do know lots of trans women are lesbians? It is just not as simple as saying people are pushing gay children down the trans route due to homophobia.

RacoonBandit · 12/01/2017 12:14

You do know lots of trans women are lesbians?

Do you mean born men who call themselves women who are attracted to women? If so that actually makes them heterosexual.

lelapaletute · 12/01/2017 12:14

I'd be appalled if my child was forced to undress in front of anyone, ever. Who the hell does that to kids? There should be changing facilities provided for the children to change in private if that is their wish. Or at least one assumes toilet/shower cubicles they could change in?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/01/2017 12:15

You do know lots of trans women are lesbians

Not possible. Lesbian = female sexually attracted to female. A transwoman is a male. This insistence that lesbians should let transwomen put their penises in them, because they are "female penises" , or be labelled transphobic is absolutely abhorrent.

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