How do I stop this unhealthy relationship with helpful but 'out of touch' dad.

[malificent7]

Put this in relationships but reposted here for traffic.

I do love my dad and I don't want to go nc but the dynamics between us just isn't healthy and hasn't been for a long time.
My dad has always been super careful with money to the point of being tight. I remember he had a lot of rows with my mum about cash as I was growing up as she was bipolar and this meant she went on the occasional binge. I felt she was controlled a bit.
When my mum was bullied out of her job my dad gave her a really hard time as he was loosing a wage. She later found out that he had a lot of savings squirreled away.
I'm a bit like my mum in that I am not great with money. I do try and be careful but I think all of the penny pinching/financial times obsessing/ obsession with me getting a job as a doctor or lawyer/ lack of awareness of what made a young girl happy eg;nice clothes etc made me rebel.

So now I am a single mum with a low paid job. I trained as a teacher but the stress made me mentally ill and I was bullied out of a good role in a private school. I have settled for being a Teaching Assistant.

It has been so hard to secure a permanent contract as I have been on supply. This has made it very hard to budget. I have also been hammered for child care. Dad kept making digs that I didn't have a permanent job. Finally I have got a fixed term contract that will probably lead onto a permanent role. Dad is finally happy-ish.

Over Christmas my freezer broke and dad kindly offered to buy me a new one despite me telling him I would buy on credit. I am very grateful.
However, I have also been hammered for an unexpected council tax bill. I asked if I could borrow £20 for petrol and he went off in a tantrum saying that he has already lent me £400 (for the fridge/freezer.)

I have now told him I will pay him back for the freezer as I don't want the emotional blackmail. The thing is , he is absolutely loaded. He did work and save hard but he had a very well paid job as a teacher in the private sector. He loved teaching and he just does not get why I can't hack it.

I just think he is disappointed. My sister is a successful psychiatrist and has married a rich man so he doesn't get why I am so skint. He thinks that benefits are a huge amount. I had to overcome significant mental health issues (eating disorder/ domestic violent issues) to get this far. It is a miracle that I am even employed.

He tells me I should always have a pot of £300 in case of emergencies like the freezer and does not get it at all that I just cannot save.

On the plus side of all this, I have no credit cards or loans so no debts but I am never going to be good enough am I as I'm not rich.

Apparently I am putting him under a lot of pressure. How do I stop relying on my dad.?.he is the only family I have really. it just feels like a shame but I don't want to rely on him any more.

The thing is he is great with dd and she loves him. He normally takes us to Cornwall every year for a break which dd loves and looks forward to. However, as we have not been getting on great and snipe at each other, I am reluctant to keep going on this holiday. I feel trapped in this dynamic.

[BabyDubsEverywhere]

I have bipolar, I understand the highs. I managed to rack up tens of thousands in debt in a few day period before my dh realised what was going on. He managed to claw some back for us but we are still paying off the rest 7 years later. It was my wake up call. I still have the manic periods and they are just as intense as they always were, but I have put systems in place to manage my outbursts. My spreadsheeting of our finances borders on an obsession, but it has stopped me spending frivolously - now when I am manic I will spend hours moving cash around my spreadsheet to create a pocket of cash to blow (which I fail at, because there is none spare.) I purposelessly allocate every penny to something so that when I am desperately trying to find the cash to blow it isn't there. It sounds illogical, but during an episode I am illogical so it works in a very odd and frustrating way.

I am fortunate that my dad is also loaded and gives freely and without concessions. I have a supportive husband. (far more supportive than I deserve!) BUT their support made no difference to my mania - I will be manic whether they are there to pick up the pieces or not and I just couldn't look myself in the mirror anymore knowing I was leaving them to clear up my mess. It was a low point, very low. But since I took the reins on helping myself I have never felt better (even if still mad as a box of frogs!)

Regardless of how helpful or not you believe your dad to be, the only one that can really help you get out of this cycle is you.

[malificent7]

It could be but she wasn't going on mega sprees...just buying nice clothes (from charity shops at times or New Look...not designer) , a sewing machine once and jewellery from charity shops. She didn't do designer stuff or fancy cars.. she had an old school mini.

As for the council tax bill. I pay for it month;ly and have done for all my life but this month they clumped 3 months worth of bills into one lump sum when I had budgeted to pay them one month sum. Ao I have been budgeting.

Anyway, now that we have all got the sense that I need a kick up the arse and am clearly a mess when it comes to money, has anyone got any CONSTRUCTIVE help and advice or should I head over to the credit crunch thread in order to get practical tips there? I have said I want to change so lets move on. Also advice with how to disentangle from dad would be useful.

And no, my dad is not an ogre...just a bit out of touch. He doesn't like me borrowing money but then cannot grasp why I shop at Lidls instead of Tescos.

Also, I am horrified that people are criticising for being bullied out of a job. Clearly people have NO IDEA what that is like. She had cancer and couldn't perform due to illness so was picked on.

I AM off to the credit crunch threads actually as am more likely to find constructive criticism there.

[malificent7]

Sorry...criticising my mum...
There are some nasty comments about a dead, mentally ill woman on here. What a shame!

[malificent7]

And when I say tight I meant no new clothes and hated Christmas because of the expense. He just didn't see money as fun where mum and I did.

[malificent7]

Council tax wasn't unexpected...clumping it together was ...it was misinformation. I have sorted it out and they are now spreading it out over a longer period for the coming year so that is a start.

[MagicChicken]

It was a gift apparently...but clearly with emotional strings attached. There are ALWAYS emotional strings attached.

My son would say the same thing about my lending/giving him money - which I seem to need to do on a monthly basis. There is always some crisis similar to your broken freezer. I never ask for it back - what's the point? He pays me back £100 on a Monday and asks to borrow £50 by Friday.

The thing is, my only 'emotional strings' are that I want him to stop stressing the hell out of me by growing up and learning to budget, to stop lurching from one crisis to another with nothing put by whatsoever to ride any storms and not to spunk every penny of his earnings on non-essential crap the second it hits his bank account and then come crying to me when his car goes wrong or he can't pay a parking fine. I know what his fixed/unavoidable outgoings are and I know roughly what his earnings are. It should be perfectly doable and yet....

He could have been in a higher paid job/profession by now if he'd been of the right mindset (he wasn't) but he chose to train for something that would never make lots of money. I warned him against it because I know he loves to spend and has high expectations of how life should be and what you should be entitled to have in order to be happy.

He enjoys his job (skilled trade) but he doesn't make a huge amount of money yet.That's absolutely fine, except that he wants to live like someone with lots of money. And he doesn't get my utter frustration when his choices and expectations are completely at odds with his choice of career and his means.

I hope this goes some way in helping you understand how your dad feels.

[Iggi999]

Many people on here rely on parental support to the tune of hundreds every month in the form of free childcare.

[eyebrowsonfleek]

If you want an adult relationship then you need to censor yourself. (ie shut up) Don't tell him about your struggles with money so he can't lecture and judge you. He doesn't accept that teaching has changed radically since he was a teacher either so stop talking about the stresses currently faced by teachers. That way you won't get frustrated with him disbelieving you.

As long as you go running to him, you are remaining in a dependent child-adult relationship. To me as an outsider, I think it must have been hard for your dad to have to watch carefully over household expenditure because of your mum's illness. It must have been very stressful.

[NoraDora]

You sound incredibly frustrated but relatively unwilling to do anything about your situation.

Get a proper budget. Use a spreadsheet and write down ALL outgoings for the month. Every time you spend money, write it down. At the end of the month review which parts are essential and which parts are not essential. Cut the non essential bits.

When your dad moans about you shopping at lidl just say "I have to so I can balance my income and outgoings". He needs to see you taking responsibility for your own money.

Your dad is right about trying to save a small fund for emergencies if you can.

Are you on any benefits? If so, check you are getting everything you are entitled to including tax credits.

Finally do you have any skills that could supplement your income? Eg taking in ironing in the evenings? If you are a trained teacher, you could look into private tutoring or exam marking. These can be done around TA hours.

[scaryclown]

If your dad wants you to have a good lifestyle, be good with money, and an ambitious job he needs to support acknowledge and celebrate who you are, rather than treat you as less than his fantasy version of who he imagines you should be. Treating people like that puts them in a 'forever drowning' mindset amd its unhealthy.

The cliche that women are bad with money and 'here give it me' means its his fault that you and your mother find managing money difficult. I sense thst even if you do manage money well..in terms of spending reasonably carefully (rather than investing) ..he will still be critical. This type of 'reward not given' parenting leads you to simultaneously be focussed on trying to achieve a strategy that pleases him, and sets up a 'why should i bother' aspect that pulls against any success and ensures failure. the base for this is that actually your father needs to 'prove' that you are bad with money to a. prove his theory b. demonstrate he was right c. maintain his position as head of household. Its the same behaviour as a manager who withholds information or resources to do the same.

Added to this is the different economics that have benefitted your father..earning in a time when one man's salaty easily covered an average house, when living costs wre low, pensions more generous, and pressures on income less diverse.

This has enabled him to view his achievememts as down to his skill, rather than circumstances, and gives him additional tools to 'demonstrate' how effective his world view is. Also there is the time effect. as ypu age, you gain possessions and lose desires, and he's male. Two pairs of good shoes, all household implememts bought, and cheap food bills are probably all he needs. you gather the things you need over time and you, as hr did, will get to a point when you either have everything or dont want anything more..amd if uou feel like it can lord it over younger people who haven't..

The fundamental thing here is that he it doesnt feel that he is open hearted helping you with a base to rise from, but that he is .he is using his 'help' to illustrate that he has to step in, because you can't get it right..this is because of his persistebt narratibe to you that you cant do well with money.

Fuck that. take his cash, push him for more, saying that if HE is so good with money he would know tgat hoarding it earns nothing, but giving you a base, confidence and ambotion will earn more or that buying a house for you would be better use.

I know the weird behaviour of being congratulated, or given attention for getting a shit regular job but no attention for a job the oldies cant understand or is unreliable or insecure. in thrir world people got jobs, stayed with the same employer, all was permanemt, and you only left if something went wrong. They just dont understand that employers today dont like permamency, pay lower than they used to, prefer precariousnessness and expect/create transience. Oldies helped by daily mail position this as employees being flaky, special snowflakes etc rather than employers beimg shit, because they are naive, deferential, old fashioned people who think 'employers and older people are right..even when they are wrong.

The idea that benefits are a lot is also DM fare. All these positions are all about boosting the egos of the readership that 'everyone else is useless' . Leave him to his misunderstanding. Take money off him when you can. Go to a debt/budgeting charity (Christians agsinst poverty are brilliant, i used them and they do a very thorough job) and hide what you need to hide from your dad. When you see him rehearse solely positive stories so that he cant get his nails into a negative. ..other than that I suggest keeping ypur game in focus..and leaving his to one side...

[malificent7]

eyebrowsonfleek...spot on advice. That's the kick up the arse i'm looking for!

[lougle]

If you want to take control of your finances, use YNAB. It will help you so much. I agree with everyone else. The problem here is not your father.

[malificent7]

I am NOT going to take his money any more scary clown as I want to break free from this narrative (I do agree with some of what you say regarding the world view though.)

[ClopySow]

I understand the emotional strings thing. I stopped asking for any help financially around 10 years ago, no matter how much i was struggling. It was causing a great deal of tension in my relationship with my parents. Since i stopped asking, things improved in our relationship and they actually get pretty pushy about helping me out now, but it only works because they offer rather than i ask, and more often than not, i decline their offer.

As for become more self reliant, really small changes have made a big difference for me. A weekly payment into a credit union basically paid for christmas. The magic £2 coin jar paid for a school trip. Weekly/fortnightly super market shopping trip with only milk amd bread from the local shop. A bill payment account that i always pay a little bit too much into so it builds up each month.

[Fallonjamie]

Your Dad isn't coming across badly in this thread either despite you thinking he does.

[shovetheholly]

Great post scaryclown.

He sounds absolutely mean - not just financially but in spirit - one of those people who simply cannot understand the realities of being poor, and who likes to lecture others on the subject never having struggled himself. I can't bear those people, they are the worst combination of arrogance and ignorance.

It must be hard living with his critical voice - when parents are so negative, most children internalise it to some extent. You deserve a huge pat on the back for getting as far as you have in terms of putting your life back together, and I really hope things will look up for you from here. I think that freeing yourself from voices that are negative and critical is a really important part of that process: that means standing on your own two feet financially, BUT it also means congratulating yourself for your achievements, and judging yourself kindly by standards you set, not his utterly bonkers and out-of-date ones.

[ShinyMoonFace]

I agree that you do sound as if you are not quite fully taking responsibility for your own situation. You had an inheritance but it's all spent. Your dad does not understand things are different nowadays. (But he slings you money alot, and pays for holidays) You have spending sprees that are outside of your control, you misunderstood the arrangements re council tax etc but it's not your fault etc. I think you are terribly frustrated, and in a bad spot, and it all feels overwhelming for you, and i DO understand that, really.

I think there has been loads of great advice here about taking control for yourself. You are an adult and need to model responsibility for your own daughter also. There are lots of places / courses / advice etc out there that can help you, and I bet that considering you are clearly motivated to change your approach to finances, and clearly self motivated enough to keep working despite some setbacks, you will be able to really move forward and move forward positively.

But, you are an adult also - don't rely on your dad. Most of us revert back into parent/ child when around our parents. You want to step out of that role now... and that is great. But you have to actually do that, and not expect regular handouts.

Good luck.

[DownWithThatSort0fThing]

Sorry but You really do need to stop with the victim mentality OP.

No one has criticized your mother that I can see but you do seem to be drip feeding information about her, more sympathy inducing stuff each time.

From what I can see people are giving tough love type of advice like yes you do need to sort yourself out rather than soft soaping or some kind of fantasy world answer, people are being honest.

[mydogmymate]

I must defend the op here, bipolar is a bitch and one of the first things they ask when making assesment is whether you are spending loads of money and getting in to debt, it's one of the obvious signs and called risky behaviour. I had my house repossessed and went bankrupt before a psychiatrist pointed out that it is bi polar behaviour. 20 years on and I've got it under control, you need to do this op, but slagging her and her mother is not helpful.

[Otherpeoplesteens]

OK, I've just re-read the thread so now have a little bit more background info. Whilst I can still empathise very much with having out-of-touch baby-boomer parents, I don't think it's the issue here. Did it ever occur to you that your Dad is actually very much in touch, and trying to tread a fine line between:

a) making sure your food doesn't spoil or denying you the chance to bulk shop to save (by buying the fridge/freezer) and
b) enabling your financially destructive behaviour (£20 for petrol)?

If he had seen anything worth £20 in your recent purchases which were not absolutely essential then to be honest he's doing you a favour if he turns you down.

I see a lot of similarities with my one time best friend forever. He grew up in a wealthy household, had boomer parents who never had to worry about money, and did all the things he was supposed to do (uni, etc.). He really struggled when he set out on his own, dismal luck with jobs in particular. But he was also hopelessly disorganised, liked to stick his head in the sand about things, and retained this unshakeable belief that he had the right to nice things like clothes, gadgets, household goods.

I always thought that he was doing OK, up until the point he asked to borrow a couple of thousand quid (which, in all honesty, was small change to his parents) from me for an unexpected bill. It turned out that he and his housemate (joint owners, bought together to get on the ladder) had bought a DFS suite on credit, the interest free period was coming to an end and while the housemate had stumped up, my friend didn't have his half. This was not an 'unexpected' bill in any sense of the word - he'd signed up knowingly 18 months previously.

I knew what he earned and what his bills were, and that it would have taken three or four months to pay me back. Stupidly, I lent the money.

Three years later, when I had seen not a penny of it back, I visited him in his new rental home. He had abandoned the house he part-owned along with my the furniture to move in with his then new girlfriend several hundred miles away. This two-bed flat was kitted out entirely with new stuff, all on credit. Off the top of my head, there was a dining table/chairs, two sofas, two TVs, double bed, sofa bed, desk, microwave, pots, pans, plates etc. I'd say close to ten grand of brand new stuff. And please, could I lend him a few hundred to get his car back on the road?

We had strong words that weekend. He had asked me for the money three years previously because his parents had, in fact, refused to give him any more. He had maxed out his overdraft, and taken out a personal loan to pay off his credit cards, and would have defaulted on the DFS loan without my help. He had now taken on even more debt with his GF's support. He had actually invited me to stay because he thought he had bought some time by switching all his credit cards to a 0% deal on balance transfers, without realising that there would monthly minimum payments which were now running into four figures.

Long story short, the relationship was unhealthy - for me, and I am not at all 'out of touch'. I was enabling him. He wasn't bipolar, and not even unable to exercise any self-control, just unwilling to.

Like his parents had found, the only thing that worked was to tell him that there would be no more cash.

We no longer speak to each other.

[BarbarianMum]

Don't ask him for money, don't borrow money from him, don't talk to him about money.

Stop blaming him, or envying him.

Take £300 out of your dd' s university savings and put it in a separate instant access savings account as "rainy day" money. Then set up an additional standing order for £1/week from your main account to repay the £300 you borrowed. It'll take 6 years but it'll be there by the time she needs it.

[lougle]

As the daughter of someone with bipolar and having lived in a generally unstable financial environment due to erratic spending but also just poverty, I can tell you that it leaves a lasting impact. I have been bankrupt, in large part through trying to help my parents out. Despite never being in debt in the 10 years since bankruptcy, I get really stressed at periods of high expenditure, such as Christmas, even if we have saved enough money for what we need. I have palpitations if our bank balance falls below £300, even if I know that we are due to be paid the next day.....psychologically it's a mess.

[malificent7]

I havn't got anything on credit otherpeople's teens..my sofa is a hand me down from a friend! I did buy an inexpensive bed and a washing machine with my inheritance plus a new desk and chair from dd from IKea...all the rest of my furniture is from my nan!

When I told him I'd saved a fortune by switching my utilities to Utility Warehouse he looked outsdone and said he was thinking of following my example so I don't get it wrong all the time.

This is the reality of being a single mum in a breadline job!

[Plifner]

I find your attitude to your dad quite sad actually. It must have been awful to have to ensure your mum didn't overspend and now he's having to do the same for you.

All you need to do is sit and write down everything you spend, everything you need, then look at what you've got coming in and where the shortfalls are. You may not be able to buy clothes or nice treats for a few months while you sort everything out

[Marynary]

I think that this is unfortunately what can happen if you borrow money from parents. My own are very well off and also haven't got a clue but I don't give them the opportunity to give me financial advice as I have never ever asked them for money, not even as student.
I appreciate that you may feel a bit daunted by the idea of never asking your father for help financially but it sounds like you are quite good at managing money if you have no other debts despite a low income so it probably won't be that hard. You will feel a lot better for it in the long run.