To think this isn't homophobic?

[LeeFiora]

Was watching a film, The Family Stone, the other day, and the reaction one of the characters gets to a comment she makes is really bothering me.

Basically the character says that if she had kids, she wouldn't mind if they were gay but that due to the mindset of society at large it would be easier for them to be straight. The other characters are absolutely disgusted by her and she is shamed into leaving.

The thing is, that's exactly the view I hold. I have a small child and will absolutely wholeheartedly support any loving relationship she gets into as she gets older. I do think it would be easier on her to be straight as I'd like her to be able to, for example, hold hands with her partner in public or be able to hug and kiss them without people tut-tutting it, as I have very unfortunately seen happen.

AIBU to think this isn't a homophobic point of view?

YANBU op. I feel the same.

I would support my dc in any relationship they choose - but if I had a button now, to choose 'gay' or 'straight' now, I would choose straight for them.

Because the chances are that it will be easier for a young, straight man to go out and meet a girl and marry/have dc if they choose. Being gay is undoubtedly the harder path, so no, I wouldn't choose it for them if there was a choice. IMO anyone that thinks that = homophobia has a massive chip on their shoulder.

bravedancing

I love this comment. Your so good at articulating the issue. I sometimes feel very challenged when having to talk about emotional stuff in English. Because I'm trying to say what I feel but I think it doesn't have the same emotional depth than in my native languages (not that English doesn't have emotional depth. But I cannot really portray it in English. Especially not in writing)

That's an awful thing to say and deeply homophobic. I think that's why we have festivals like Pride. Because so many of us get this message relentlessly throughout our lives. We should be tolerated, accepted, but not loved, and our love not celebrated, or encouraged or rejoiced in, in a culture which promotes heterosexual romantic love at every turn, and it can be really hurtful. I think love should be celebrated and encouraged, in whatever form that takes.

I copy pasted that to a personal file of inspirational quotes. Thanks :)!

I love that movie and I love that scene for the part at the end where Diane Keaton signs that she loves him and "is more normal than any other arsehole sitting at this table".

The context is that she is sitting in front of two gay men equating being gay to not being "normal" and to being "challenged".

So it's a lot ruder than simply being sad for the challenges that gay people face.

Decades ago I knew a woman who felt the same about mixed race children, that she wouldn't ever marry a black man because of the prejudice such a child would face. Although I was it was quite a common attitude back then.

But the problem is not the gay/mixed race person but the prejudice society holds towards that person. That's what needs changing and it does change (albeit slowly) because I doubt anyone would feel it ok to talk about mixed race children in that way anymore.

Its probably easier to marry someone with a British surname (in the UK) because recruiters have biases.

Its probably easier to not to marry interracially as the children will suffer from comments from both communities.

Its probably easier not to be bi because both hetro and homosexual communities dont understand it.

etc.

What is normal? What do we want from kids when we hope for that?

How do we challenge bigoted behaviour? Certainly not through creating perceived differences about sexuality where one is normal and the other is deemed abnormal. The first generations of any new or different people have been tutted at. The first freed slaves were no doubt tutted at but how many of them thought, I hope my kids are slaves because they would get tutted (and worse) at?

I think context is everything with the OP's remark, including who it is said by - it needn't necessarily be homophobic to say something like that, but it often comes from an underlying attitude of homophobia.

I grew up as gay-ish in the 1980s and while some things have got better, other things have got worse. As odd as it sounds, I think the coolness of "queer" as a concept has made it actively worse for a lot of lesbians. If you are in a big city and come out as queer (even if you are bi, in a het relationship and have never had a same-sex relationship, or any intention of doing so) you get cool queer points, but if you are just a boring old lesbian you get shit from both conservatives and so-called progressives. At least in the 1980s, if you held hands with a girlfriend on the street you might get called "dyke" and threatened with corrective rape, at least gay-friendly spaces were friendly to you. If I was a young lesbian today I might hide it, or call myself something else.

Its probably easier not to be bi because both hetro and homosexual communities dont understand it.

As a bi ex-lesbian, scottishdiem, I can assure you that it's way, way easier to be bi (and much more acceptable in the current LGBT+ communities) than it is to be a lesbian. Lesbians are at the absolute bottom of the pecking order, which is a disgrace.

Creakyknees,
We were discussing if it was homophobic to think that it would be easier for your child to be straight.

PP's mum went much further, she made it about herself, she had to have a cry etc, she was very insensitive with her comments.

Your child/family member/friend coming to you about their sexuality should get nothing but support.
My point above was that it was not homophobic to worry about the challenges they may face.

What if your child is struggling with his/her sexuality but you think they are straight and say something to the effect that you are relieved that they are straight so that they don't face prejudice. How would that make someone struggling with their sexuality feel?

Now you've gone off on a tangent. If my child or anyone else told me they were struggling with their sexuality I'd tell them to take their time to work it out and I'd be there for them.

Personally, in the UK today I don't believe I'd even think "I hope you are straight as it'll be easier". (That's not to say I don't recognise the challenges gay people still face.)

I could understand someone thinking that, I don't think it makes them homophobic.

I think it would be a terrible thing to actually say it to someone struggling with their sexuality as they have to work out who they are without worrying about outside influences but I wouldn't think it was necessarily homophobic, just insensitive and heavy handed.

It doesn't sound homophobic. It sounds natural, every parent worries about bullying and it's also normal to want your child to blend in with the crowd as much as possible to avoid that.

And it's not just sexuality. I know people who have been relieved to have boys because they think it's too dangerous a world to bring girls up in. I've also read the same sentiments in threads on here. Essentially I think it comes down to privilege - white straight boys have less to fear growing up than any other group.

Archery

Really? Maybe that's UK specific? Because I used to get a lot of hate for being bi.

From people saying I'm just greedy, claiming I have internalized homophobia, can't just accept myself, will certainly cheat etc... there's also less funding to bi-projects and charities etc. And the statistics... bi people are, for example, more likely to be be depressed etc...

But talking about LGBT politics isn't the aim of this thread.

It's all about context. I would not tell any teen about how I wish they were straight because this way they'd face less challenges. Because how would I know if they or maybe a close friend are questioning their sexuality?

I'd just tell DD that I love her and that I'd want her to be happy. And give her a bear hug ;)

1horatio

I'm in the UK, so possibly. As a bi person, I get so irritated with bi people who post about how they are the most opppressed within the LGBT+ community. Because I have seen it from both sides, over a considerable period of time, and I can assure you that it isn't true.

archery

Well, I have also seen it from both sides.

Being a lesbian? Fine. Well, I was assaulted and threatened to be raped by the boyfriend of a girl I trained with, but well. Fine in the gay community.

Being bi and in a relationship with a woman? Sucked. Really really awful. Amongst straight people it's as if you are gay. In the gay community I got treated like an imposter etc....

Being bi and in a relationships with a man? Very easy. But I'm not really part of the gay community anymore. Which makes me feel guilty, in a strange way...

A colleague of mine is gay and whilst he is out, proud and in a very happy relationship fully supported by both sets of parents he has admitted that, due to homophobia he wouldn't have chosen to be gay. He is and that's all there is to it but it's not an easy life. It's like with disability - would anyone really choose it? But it is what it is and shouldn't be a reason for prejudice.

I have a gay friend from a culture where it isn't so acceptable to be gay. Well not at all even though people are they hide it or have fake marriages. I.e. Gay men marry gay women. He refuses to do that. His parents have finally accepted his sexuality but they're not happy about it and he wouldn't 'flaunt' it (his words) in their face. He has said to me in the past that he loves his life but life would be easier for him if he wasn't gay. He also wants children and doesn't know how that would be possible for him. But he's young and I said even attitudes in his community have changed so to give it a few more years or be the first!! To find a partner and adopt I said at least you live in the U.K.

1horatio & Annie - in my experience, having been out as bi and gay (and now mostly read as gay) it's different and as such hugely variable depending on where you are, and which challenges affect you personally. I think as a young bi girl trying to find my place, I had it harder than I do now, but that's partly because I have a different social circle, much more privilege in terms of age and class and the world has got better too - all queer people had it way worse off 20 years ago.

I do think that lesbians are overlooked hugely these days and I hate that the LGBT movement is so geared towards gay men and we have basically no spaces. I don't know of any lesbian bars, for example, and our stories are hideously neglected in the media. Plus the LGBT community is very very dominated by male voices which is rough. As a bi woman you have the option of ignoring that and walking away, as a gay woman you don't which is exhausting sometimes.

But then being bi and facing the invisibility, the constant rejection and the sense of never quite belonging is hard too. I suspect it's different for everyone and we shouldn't really be comparing oppression - it is all bad and I wish lesbian and bi women could stick together more because god knows, we need each other in a world that kind of wants to either exploit, abuse or ignore both of us.

Oh, and OP - thank you so much for listening and I'm really glad you changed your mind.

1horatio - for you too for being nice about my phrasing.

:)
Btw, one last comment:

Plus the LGBT community is very very dominated by male voices which is rough. As a bi woman you have the option of ignoring that and walking away, as a gay woman you don't which is exhausting sometimes.

But that is true. The gay community is imo really geared towards gay man and, to a lesser degree, transwomen... which is an issue for everyone else.

The only option you have to walk away is to shut off that part of you. To not go on a date with the person you want because they're of the same sex.
That's imo a bit the issue. I really loved my ex girlfriend end couldn't just walk away, could I?

That some people (not you!) think being bi is easier because you 'could just date somebody from the opposite sex, right?'

But I agree, it does probably hugely depend on the local gay community, age, social circle etc...

Sexuality is not something chosen or changeable. By saying that it should not be actively encouraged, you are suggesting it is wrong.

"The person is seen to have an active role in the acquisition of a homosexual identity."

[[http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1300/J082v04n03_01?needAccess=true Homosexuality Identity Formation:
A Theoretical Model]]

I don't think it's homophobic-a gay friend once said much the same to me. I do think it's sad though, specially in 2017.

The person is seen to have an active role in the acquisition of a homosexual identity

I bet you have not read that entire article, nor have a true grasp of what it is saying. People do NOT become gay because their parents 'encourage' it. Nearly all gay people have straight parents and many have straight siblings. How you construct your identity is different. You are basically attracted to either (or both) sex. You may choose to repress it if you feel that those around you would not accept it, but you would still have those essential feelings.

1horatio - all good points and I'm sorry I seemed to be belittling your relationship.

Lovelearning - I think you are misinterpreting that quote. There is the state of being homosexual - a situation where your romantic and sexual attractions are to the same sex. No-one seems to have any choice about that, as Lady Gaga says, we are born that way (or not). Then there is a process of acquiring an identity, something we all do as we mature. A homosexual identity (just like a heterosexual identity) might be one where a person is out and proud and comfortable in their own skin or it could be a miserable life of self denial, self hatred and unhappiness. Or anything in between.

brave

Nah, it's fine. I sometimes do feel a bit weird, to be in a 'straight relationship' now.

I got so used to not being able to hold hands etc in certain situations 😅:(

So, I'm sometimes still amazed how I can openly kiss DH (nit that we have open makeout sessions or anything) or hold his hand without getting lewd comments etc.

I'm gay and I think it's all about context. SJP in that movie was undeniably homophobic. OP on this thread was not.

There's nothing wrong with worrying that your child will have a harder life if they're gay - by and large, life IS harder if you're gay (though there are lots of consolations ). However, many gay people have had really negative reactions from their parents along the lines of, "I just don't want you to have a miserable, lonely life" - this is an awful way to greet your child's coming out, no matter what your fears. And it is hideous to have to sit there as a gay person while a heterosexual lectures you about whether gays should have kids/ about the importance of male role models/ about how we need to understand that straight people often have very good reasons for saying homophobic things. As the lesbian mother of two kids (one adopted) I feel I have sat at that dinner party many times myself...

Don't worry about your instinct, OP - it's fine. Just think about how you might express it on different occasions in the future.

Oh, and to the lesbian upthread who is raising her child while being closeted - you have my sympathies, sweetheart, but have you thought this through? I don't know how old your dd is, but aren't you in effect teaching her that her family is a shameful secret? Will you be asking her to lie as well? Is there any way you could move to a more accepting community?

You want the easiest path for your kids, that's natural. You don't want them having to face others intolerance, why would you?

My friend who's gay says he would choose to be straight if choice were such a thing where sexuality is concerned. He is from an Irish Catholic background and is in his 50's. He tried "being straight", in fact he has an adult son from a teenage heterosexual relationship. By some of your reckonings here you would paint him as homophobic for his views on the subject.

Mind you, he also believes that everyone is secretly gay. Perhaps he's 'straightaphobic' too!