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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think this isn't homophobic?

135 replies

LeeFiora · 01/01/2017 06:48

Was watching a film, The Family Stone, the other day, and the reaction one of the characters gets to a comment she makes is really bothering me.

Basically the character says that if she had kids, she wouldn't mind if they were gay but that due to the mindset of society at large it would be easier for them to be straight. The other characters are absolutely disgusted by her and she is shamed into leaving.

The thing is, that's exactly the view I hold. I have a small child and will absolutely wholeheartedly support any loving relationship she gets into as she gets older. I do think it would be easier on her to be straight as I'd like her to be able to, for example, hold hands with her partner in public or be able to hug and kiss them without people tut-tutting it, as I have very unfortunately seen happen.

AIBU to think this isn't a homophobic point of view?

OP posts:

Scooby20 · 01/01/2017 08:04

Actually i do fear for my dd experiencing an abusive relationship.

Becsuse i have experienced an abusive relationship.

Healtgy relationships and unacceptable behaviour is something we discuss quite often, in the hope she will be able to see the signs early.

I woild imagine its a concern most mothers have, if they have experienced it.

Original poster

LeeFiora · 01/01/2017 08:05

Would you ever say 'i fear my child being straight because of all the abuse she may suffer from her husband' which is still statistically higher. No.

Yep I also think that (see previous comment about feminism). I've been sexually assaulted by a partner and yes it has absolutely occurred to me that being in a straight relationship with someone physically much stronger than her also has its dangers.

These aren't things that I dwell on on a daily basis, before people tell me I'm going to end up raising a horribly anxious child.

OP posts:

HerBluebiro · 01/01/2017 08:07

Yes. But you wouldn't say 'I hope she isn't straight because of the risk of abuse'

Does that make sense?

We all hope our daughters don't experience abuse. Or violence. Or threats. Or just tutting.

It is what innate characteristic that we link to that risk that makes a comment discriminatory

Fuckityhi · 01/01/2017 08:07

@herbluebiro I didn't think of it like that.

HermioneWoozle · 01/01/2017 08:09

YANBU. Being straight is an easier path in life, sadly, still. I'm not saying people should pretend to be what they aren't of course. I'd want my DDs to be true to themselves however whatever their sexuality or gender.

People are being extremely naïve if they think homosexuality is as readily accepted as being straight. Men have recently been attacked and/or killed for being with their same sex partner, even in London. And if you were thinking about travelling to or working in another country you'd always have to find out how tolerant they'd be of your relationship first.

HerBluebiro · 01/01/2017 08:12

Sorry op that was to the poster above you.

Have you ever said that you would not want her to be straight? If yes just down to the risk of abuse that is also unreasonable of course. Most would take the approach of teaching her the signs of abuse and how to escape.

(although abuse can occur in all types of relationship I recognise).

Fuckityhi · 01/01/2017 08:14

Being a man is also easier than being a woman. I don't think acknowledging that fact means you're being sexist towards any daughters you have.

I do wish I could change the world so it was more tolerant. But one person can't wave a magic wand and make everything equal. We should (and I do) challenge homophobia at every opportunity, support relevant charities, raise our kids to speak out as well, etc.

Original poster

LeeFiora · 01/01/2017 08:15

You didn't say you wanted to change the world so that your hypothetically gay daughter could kiss her wife. You said you'd like her to be straight so that she could hold hands with or kiss her partner. A subtle but important difference in what was said.

I hold my hands up to that one, HerBluebiro. You are absolutely right. I thought it wasn't like that at all but I've just gone back to my OP and that's exactly what I said.

I am definitely BU

OP posts:

HermioneWoozle · 01/01/2017 08:16

one of my teachers said to us that she thought it was wrong and selfish for mixed race couples to have kids because they might face racist bullying. I can't see the difference between that comment and the one about being gay.

Can you not, really? If the OP had said "I think it's selfish for people to allow their children to be gay..." that would be the equivalent your teacher's ridiculous comment. But she didn't say that.

Littleballerina · 01/01/2017 08:16

It kind of is because to me you assume that society wouldn't accept her.

Liiinoo · 01/01/2017 08:20

Even in Brighton, the most open (and my favourite) place in the world, two nice young lads were attacked recently in a homophobic hate crime. So even though things are definitely improving in the UK, being openly gay can be harder for people.

Alorsmum · 01/01/2017 08:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster

LeeFiora · 01/01/2017 08:21

Have you ever said that you would not want her to be straight?

I've thought how hard it can be to be a straight woman. I've thought that it might be easier for her to be a boy. And then I think that it's more dangerous to be a boy, statistically, especially during teenage years and early adulthood. And then I just have to distract myself as that's a massively unhealthy thought process!

OP posts:

Scooby20 · 01/01/2017 08:23

Have you ever said that you would not want her to be straight?

I don't have any hopes or wants regarding my daughters sexuality. I am still aware of difficulties she may face, whatever her sexuality is.

HermioneWoozle · 01/01/2017 08:23

You didn't say you wanted to change the world so that your hypothetically gay daughter could kiss her wife.

Well, no as presumably the OP isn't living in cloud cuckoo land. I'd challenge homophobia wherever I see it and do everything within my power to promote tolerance. But there are limits, and changing the whole world is definitely not on my to do list.

creakyknees13 · 01/01/2017 08:26

Can you not, really? If the OP had said "I think it's selfish for people to allow their children to be gay..." that would be the equivalent your teacher's ridiculous comment. But she didn't say that

But the basis of the belief is exactly the same- that someone who is 'different' will automatically suffer abuse, so it is better to just be mainstream. Rather than challenging the problem, which is racism/homophobia. With the race comment, it shows the massive progress that has been made since 1997. I very much teachers would tell their pupils such tosh now. Yes, there is still racism, but you would rightly get slated if you said that it was wrong to have mixed race kids. In 10 years time, it would not surprise me if the same were true for same-sex couples. Remember that the legal definition of marriage has changed- it's no longer a man and a woman. Legally therefore, gay people are no longer 'other'. Therefore, I would not preoccupy my thoughts with whether my child would find it difficult coming out.

Original poster

LeeFiora · 01/01/2017 08:29

you would rightly get slated if you said that it was wrong to have mixed race kids. In 10 years time, it would not surprise me if the same were true for same-sex couples

I sincerely hope you'd get slated for it right now. And especially any teacher saying it isn't fit for the job.

OP posts:

HerBluebiro · 01/01/2017 08:29

It is so hard! Motherhood is worry. And yup unhealthy thought processes just spring on you!

The important bit is we try to change how we act and speak for the better.

And even more important is the first bit where you just want your daughter to be happy and in a healthy relationship no matter the sex of the person she is with.

After that we can forgive unintentional ingrained prejudice from our parents. I don't think any of us would want our children to have a harder life than they must and it is normal (if irratioal) to wish the easier path for them

HermioneWoozle · 01/01/2017 08:33

But she isn't saying it's wrong to be gay, but that other people think it is! It's not a discussion about choices, people don't choose to be gay.

There is no point teaching kids that the world is a lovely and tolerant place, as it isn't. You can teach them to be tolerant and spread tolerance and to challenge prejudice. But bloody hell, they are going to get one hell of a shock if they think the world is tolerant.

HerBluebiro · 01/01/2017 08:36

Hermione if we are wishing to change something unchangeable though (at this point all hypothetical) you would use your magic wand to wish a person wasn't gay rather than wishing the world was a better place?

It is as unreasonable to wish a child isn't gay s it is to wish the world was a better place. The difference is that someone's sexuality can't be corrected. The world can (see my list for examples) even if it is very hard work.

And fwiw op seems to be one of the good guys who is trying to be that change in the world

creakyknees13 · 01/01/2017 08:40

I sincerely hope you'd get slated for it right now. And especially any teacher saying it isn't fit for the job

Yes, I meant now (for the race thing). The in 10 years thing was in relation to being slated for saying you hope your kid wasn't gay. It seems that a lot of people think that's a legitimate thing to say in public. Imagine if you were a child and you knew that your parents hoped that you were not gay because of the perceived difficulties you would face. Would that not affect you if you grew up realising you were gay? That your parents said 'well, we would accept you unconditionally BUT we'd rather you were straight'.

And going back to the film, yes, I would say it's wrong to say to a family where one of the children is gay (and they have presumably faced prejudice growing up in the 80s and 90s) that you hope your own children are straight. I would have told her to go sling her hook too. There is no need to vocalise your internal prejudice.

surferjet · 01/01/2017 08:42

Yanbu. Even in London you don't see that many gay couples openly kissing in public.
It is still hard to be openly gay for many people.

MatildaWormwoodRoolsOK · 01/01/2017 08:42

You hear it a lot on the pregnancy boards, though, "oh our course I'd love the child if he was disabled, but life is just so much easier if course for children that aren't". The comparison with sexuality struck me as I was sitting in the waiting room waiting to see a consultant about unborn DD2's birth defect, and Lady Gaga's "Born this Way" was on the radio. As has been often pointed out on MN, disablism is far more socially acceptable than homophobia.

HerBluebiro · 01/01/2017 08:42

At no point did I say she did want to teach her child it was wrong to be gay.

At no point at all have I said the world is a nice place (did you not read my earlier posts with the rape threat?)

Simply that the comment that you hope your child isn't gay because the world is horrible, is a homophobic comment. And I think I explicitly said not on a par with the true bigots who are violent and truly homophobic. But op is not that person. She just wants what is best for her daughter.

There are degrees of homophobia as there are racism and disabling and sexism. Just because it is not the violent extreme doesn't mean it is not homophobic. Albeit a thought that I as a gay woman have had myself. Internalised homophobia exists too.

LadyLothian · 01/01/2017 09:02

OP can I just say that all tolerance and intolerance is a spectrum? We all have some views and feelings that are socially unacceptable or abhorrent. They may be small, we may be unaware of them - but they're there.

The way we deal with this and become better people is by having open conversations and having our viewpoints challenged. Many people would have doubled down after being challenged on such an emotive issue, but you've stayed and sought to understand other posters points of view.

I find that very impressive and that kind of open mindedness is what changes things.

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