To be HORRIFIED that this might be taught in my daughters school

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Have any of you come across this? Do you know if this, or other lessons have been presented to your primary (or secondary) age children?

www.transgendertrend.com/teaching-transgender-doctrine-in-schools-a-bizarre-educational-experiment/

Crohnic, congratulations, I didn't know you were pregnant!

Okay @thatcoldfeeling, I identify as non-binary. Or I would, had I not met feminism first. Weirdly I am also autistic.

HaveNoSocks "No one is going to convince a child to become trans by having a less binary view of gender in schools …” Do you really know that, because quite a few young women start to transition and then change their minds, maybe because being a young woman in 2016 is pretty shit and they see an escape route.

My DS has no gender issues as far as I can tell but I don't see what possible harm would come to him from thinking about gender as more fluid."

Well I guess 'gender' to some extend really is fluid, in that it is literally made up. If you look at how men dressed in France a few hundred years ago, and how women dressed in (what is now) Palestine a few thousand years ago, and how man and women dress now, you will see it is all made up. Not innate at all. It is stereotypes about how people perceive things for females and males at this time and in this place/a different time and place. It contains ideas like - women can multi task well (because society needs them to do that to look after multiple children), men can read maps and navigate well (because they are adventurers and we women don't need to move that far!)

What we call 'gender' is really a bunch of sexual stereotypes. That is fine if you recognise it for that. But really not a good idea to base one’s life around. Sometimes the stereotypes are true! I have appalling sense of direction! Honestly. Is it my lack of a penis to point the way, or being encumbered with a womb and vagina, or these heavy boobs weighing me down! No I just happen to have a shit sense of direction. I find I can ask for directions, I know some men find that harder. Is that because of their biology? or a society that expects men to know what to do next and punishes them for weakness?

I am more than happy for girls to wear trousers (I wear little else, in that I rarely wear dresses, not that I just wear trousers!)

But the whole transgender movement is about far more than this. It is about de-valuing language used to describe biological sex and devaluing biological sex itself to some extent.

Real, genuine trans kids who just want to live their lives should completely get the help they need.

The vast majority of kids will not be trans, so taking away the language they can use to describe themselves as girls and boys is harmful to them, or rather harmful to the girls.

Elsa “Might be worth having a chat to your child's school and see how they intend to teach things. It might well be a lot less scary than it sounds.”

Big waves XX. I hope it is less scary, I do hope you are right.

I'm sure I read recently that only 10% of each sex were (on testing) 100% congruent with their gender stereotype. So that's a hell of a lot of "non-binary" and "gender-fluid" people around. (I will search for a link when I am not on my phone! Unless someone can find it for me?)

Or they could just be peoples personalities.

HaveNoSocks I am only commenting on you because you are saying interesting things in a good way but I don't agree with you! But I am not picking on you!

“What is this harmful ideology they're teaching the article posted is so biased I can't make head nor tail of it. Can someone post something more factual?” You can google the actual booklet and see what it says, you can see how much it costs, and how much tax payer money is going to be used via a charity.

This is what it says…“Meet Kit - a 12 year old undergoing medical transition - as he talks about gender and the different ways it can be explored. He explains what it is like to transition and how his friends, family and teachers can help through talking, listening and being proactive.

With illustrations throughout, this is an ideal way to start conversations about gender diversity in the classroom or at home and suitable for those working in professional services and settings. The book also includes a useful list of recommended reading, organisations and websites for further information and support.”

It is confusing as the booklet has been reported as talking about a male transitioning but I think it may be about a female transitioning, because of the use of the male pronoun here, I find it unlikely any book like this would use a male pronoun for someone born male who is trans.

This is what I saw first kit (assuming girl of 12) undergoing medical transition. Scary, no?

I think girls are much more vulnerable to this because males are the dominant class and it is much more likely for younger women to want to transition than older, it seems. Conversely, it seems that in terms of transitioning later, males have the corner on that market. But I do wonder if anyone has any stats on that?

HaveNoSocks ".. but gender does exist at least psychologically and there is evidence that it goes further than that."

It's true, it does exist, but it is not innate. In the same way that Mickey Mouse exists but is not a real mouse. Gender could change, we could evolve a society where women were on top and bossed men around. But I would rather live in a society where all are free to be themselves, live their lives and not oppress others.

"... I would rather live in a society where all are free to be themselves, live their lives and not oppress others."

Should add...

And we will not get there if women are stopped from talking about the situations, biology related that oppress them!

I can't say it bothers me. I think kids should be taught that whatever is in a person's pants doesn't matter and you should address them how they want to be addressed. Just like I can request people call me Ms. instead of Miss or Mrs, they can request to be he/she/they etc.

I have yet to hear a rational explanation of transgender.

Stormtreader there are also transwomen who do not lose the facial hair or start donning pink dresses etc. I reckon there is more to someone's sense of "gender identity" than just observing a set of gender stereotypes and deciding you prefer the ones typically associated with the opposite or same sex. Well for some anyway.

JAPAB how do theses bearded blokes in dresses differ from bearded blokes in dresses?

But Mrs what if the boy who wants to be addressed as a girl then wants to use the girls toilets? Or change with them at swimming? Or share a room overnight on the school trip?

I don't have an issue with the 'call people whatever they want to be called' but I don't like the argument that whatever anyone says they identify is how we then have to 'treat' them - as in I don't want my girls to have boys allowed in female areas just because they say they feel female, or non binary. If they want to be called Ella and Wear a dress and have pink hair- ace, but if they have a penis then stay out of female toilets/changing areas/protected over night spaces/sex ed classes where girls should be able to be comfortable to ask whatever personal questions they want. If it becomes the norm for anyone who identifies as female nipping in an out of female bathrooms then it becomes impossible to question the boys who will be nipping in their to wolf whistle and peek over the toilet doors and 'cop a feel' because they just need to claim gender is non binary so they feel female today. I don't want my (already vulnerable because of disability) girls to be at risk from that.

She could make that decision when she's 18. Not that I think 18 yo really know a whole lot, which is why I think egg freezing, puberty blockers and then the choice with 18 would be the way I could potentially agree on (DH has similar ideas, btw)

Well hopefully, your dd will not have body dysmorphia, 1horatio, but if she does, I think you will need to do more research.

1. If puberty is suspended how are they going to harvest eggs?

2. Women who want to be sterilised for other reasons, such as too many children or not wanting to have children have great difficulty convincing doctors to do this, because of all the health problems early sterilisation causes.

I have read the book that is referred to in the original link. It's not an 'educational guidebook', as such; it is published by JKP, which specialises in titles for and about young people's issues, especially those related to SEND. They worked with Educate and Celebrate in putting it together; but as far as I understand it there is no intention to do anything with it other than sell it, as they do all their other titles. And I'd be interested to see any evidence that it - i.e. the book - is remotely 'endorsed by Ofsted' .

The language in the transgendertrend link isn't accurate, or helpful. For example, "The possibility of diversity without medication is not entertained" is simply not true. Indeed, as these things go, this particular narrative is quite sensitively done - and makes it very clear that 'liking boys'/girls' things' as a 'girl/boy' is not the same as being transgender. However, I have raised two serious concerns with the publisher - first, that it claims 'cisgender' is the "correct" word to describe someone who fully identifies with their "gender". And secondly, and more worryingly, that it states unequivocally that taking hormone blockers is "fully reversible" and will do "no harm" to a young person. In response to the first query, I have been told it will be raised with editors. I have not received a satisfactory response to the second.

beyond Thanks! It's not actually that weird to be autistic and have some gender or sex confusion- something like 1 in 6 trans people are (diagnosed) autistic. Or was it 1 in 6 autists are trans?

multivac what is supposed to be the right thing to call people who "fully identify" with their gender? I thought it was cisgender.

(How many people fully identify with their gender?!).

Maybe this is a side point, but I disagree with all these people suggesting that the whole world knows how to define a man and a woman and everyone agrees on that definition.

The two main examples I know of a very accepted "third gender" are fa'afafine (Samoa) and hijra (Asia). These are not new gender roles by any means and my understanding is that many other cultures have had / still have similar roles within their gender understanding.

I would be very comfortable with my children exploring gender issues in school providing it was taught in a sensible and compassionate way and was not a feminist nightmare assuming all girls like pink, sewing and never climb trees!

Oh and Mrs - what's in my pants does matter, my biological sex is why I was sexually abused, and why they stopped (I hit puberty), my medical health is defined by my biological sex (pmdd, hemoraging-linked to another genetic disability more common in females than males, & repeated miscarriages), and my experience of pregnancy, birth and nursing babies has played a significant role in who I am as an adult. I don't want my experience of any of that devalued by the argument that what's in my pants doesn't matter, as I'm sure victims of fgm don't want that devalued or those who are surrogate mothers (not gestational carriers) would want that devalued. My biological sex interacts with my life in a way that it is not possible to detangle, it does so in a way that will be different from other females, and is dependant on a range of factors, but it is important and it holds value. What it doesn't do is define my worth (being human alone should do that), it doesn't define my personality, or what I should or shouldn't do. But it does matter.

Crohnically yes I've also heard of a correlation between autism and trans.

Allotmenty, that's the opposite of feminism

Yes - exactly - that way of teaching would be a nightmare to any feminist.

good post indrid

I am sorry to hear about what was done to you when you were a child.

I was referring to all girls like pink etc. No feminist believes that. I'm amazed you've got it so wrong tbh. Is there a typo?

I think that if they taught gender in a way that assumed all girls like pink, sewing and never climb trees it would give feminists nightmares because it is the opposite of feminism.