To be HORRIFIED that this might be taught in my daughters school

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Have any of you come across this? Do you know if this, or other lessons have been presented to your primary (or secondary) age children?

www.transgendertrend.com/teaching-transgender-doctrine-in-schools-a-bizarre-educational-experiment/

What definition of gender are you using there, HaveNoSocks?

I think the whole idea has become a lot more publicised and popular due to quite a few celebs bringing up their children to be 'gender neutral'. I don't see the harm, kids will be who they will be. My DD has 'boy' toys and 'girl' toys. One of my friends DS fave toy is a baby Annabelle! Attracts some funny looks, but hey, it's what he likes!

Does anyone disagree with hazyJanes definition?

I think the "you are a woman if you feel like one"......... is a crock of shit and I resent those things being taught as fact.

Of course it is shit. Why not declare yourself to be a dog and head off to Crufts?

havenosocks
So you can see nothing harmful in quote posted?

Today 15:33 KnitsBakesAndReads

This quote from a supply teacher referred to in that article is chilling:

"The three lessons I was asked to deliver were like something from the 50’s in terms of gender stereotypes. Slick animations showed diagrams of boys with mainly blue brains and girls with mainly pink brains. Amongst these pink and blue-brained figures were a minority of boys with pink brains and girls with blue brains. A video interview with a doctor explained that sometimes biology gets it wrong and a boy or a girl will be born with the “wrong” brain in the “wrong” body. But, now it is all ok because medical science can “fix” this and put the right brain in the right body. Interviews with happy trans kids who had taken drugs to stop puberty and were awaiting “gender reassignment” surgery made the whole thing look perfectly ordinary."

It's as though the battles feminists have fought against the idea that men and women have different intellectual capabilities never happened

Pugmomma, I can't help thinking that attitudes like that are what is reinforcing the idea that there are certain ways that boys should behave and certain ways girls should behave. Which rational person would give a shit if a boy played with a doll? That's where all this tg stuff has started.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/02/male-and-female-what-is-it-like-to-be-intersex

"Intersex" isn't as rare as people think. It is a spectrum, there are differing traits. I personally don't like the term intersex, and I say that as parent of a child on the spectrum. Sorry that my post is slightly off topic, I appreciate the article is about transgender children, it is just every time posts of this nature appear, the term 'intersex' usually gets mentioned.

The problem with this is that by the time children go to school their gender identity has been fixed. Most people get the sex of their unborn baby at about 18 weeks gestation. Sexing a child means giving them a gender identity.

Perhaps the focus should be put on maternity units?

Have it exists only as society dicrates it existed though. There are tribes out there where gender is opposite of the western world- where women are hunters and leaders and birth babies before giving them to the men who nature care for and sooth them by (heave) dry nursing while the women get on and bring home the bacon. So gender doesn't exist in the sense that it isn't directly tied into our biological sex, it exists as a social construct and kids need taught that there is no underlying biological reason to indicate females have shared personalittle characteristics that are separate from males.

Intersex is a rare condition. An article from the Guardian isn't going to cut it quite frankly.

Should babies be sexed at birth and during gestation? That's the focus.

My childs school allowed me to sit in on a lesson that included being accepting of transgender people.

In it they explored stereotyping people based on looks and hobbies. It was absolutely fine, not worrying at all, and was really well done.

They also started using more inclusive language, things like not telling girls and boys to line up separately, not making girls like pink and boys like blue assumptions etc.

It was absolutely fine, nothing to be scared of at all in my schools instance.

Might be worth having a chat to your child's school and see how they intend to teach things. It might well be a lot less scary than it sounds.

While I do agree to a certain extent with the general trans-sceptic trend here on MN, I worry that if it is incorrect and that trans people really are in the boat they say they are in it becomes damaging and actually bigotry. I worry that things are a little up in the air at the moment and until it settles down prejudices from both sides are damaging.

I certainly do agree that this shouldn't really be being taught in school but part of me wonders if this really isn't the 'end' but is actually the beginning and we are seeing the tip of the iceberg of the whole 'trans' debate and how it is actually deep rooted in gender discourse.

Manumission - I was agreeing with you FFS and you were just rude in reply. WTAF?!?
I am obviously even more crap at communicating that I first thought.

Does anyone have experience of their children receiving these lessons?

With regard to the Standard article about not constantly referring to pupils as girls and boys (as opposed to something gender neutral like students/pupils) is actually a really good idea, even leaving trans issues aside.

"The Gender Delusion" explains that references to gender of students makes their gender salient and makes them feel stereotype threat which can undermine their performance in subjects/tasks which are stereotypically done 'better' by the opposite gender.

WRT trans ideology, my compassion for people who want to live life differently, who reject the gender box they have been put into and be accepted as individuals is strong.

But I'm not really sure I understand the gender identity stuff.

I am a woman and feminist and I think that in general the tight boxes of gender roles and stereotypes is a bunch of bullshit. Clothes, hairstyles, hobbies, jobs etc shouldn't have to be a product of your sex. I'm clearly female, and there a few stereotypically feminine things I'm interested in but mainly my interests are neutral/stereotypically masculine. I have little time for clothes/shoes/hand bags and whatever else all women are 'supposed' to find fascinating.

I seriously wonder whether being trans would exist if sexism and tight gender roles didn't.

As I said I have every piece of compassion for people especially teens who feel they don't fit and are looking for an answer, a label to find their tribe. This feeling otherness is really common and I wonder if it is part of growing up and understanding yourself as an individual. But it might also be caused by having a different sexual orientation, having/being aspergers/HFA, or simply having different priorities from the people around one.

That said, I've listened to people try to explain the gender identity thing and I wonder if it is invisible to me because I don't have that feeling of discord, the way that if someone had never heard of being homosexual, they might not understand sexual orientation because they assume that sexual feelings for men is just part of being female.

The whole non-binary label sounds odd to me because it would probably apply to me but I've never felt that I was genuinely expected to be absolutely binary, growing up just before these labels beame well used and I wonder if it is a kick back against the odd increase in gender segergated toys/clothes. Its a label for just being yourself and it is a shame that some feel it is necessary in 2016.

Girls have always had less feminine female role models like George from Famous Five, Jo from Little Women. Maybe boys need the equivalent, like Billy Elliot, different ways to be Boys and Men rather than being put in a man box.

I feel that feminists are trying to tear down gender stereotypes whilst transactivists, also unhappy with their assigned stereotypes, are more focused on getting into the other box as a method of coping (which I have sympathy for) but I think the answer is not to put people in gender boxes in the first place.

Sorry for the ramble which is neither on message for being entirely supportive of the transmovement nor fully on message for the feminist based critique of it. It's my honest thoughts on it all which are a bit confused and may change in future.

What I find strange in schools, especially primary, is that girls are allowed to wear a range of clothes, tunic, skirt, trousers, but boys get the option of short or long trousers and that's it. You cannot discuss trans issues without addressing the dress code.

I dont understand the first premise. How does using the terms boys and girls 'reinforce that gender is a significant difference in behaviour patterns.'

*I find the idea that some people believe that we - human beings - mammals - the world over, do not know what a man or woman, or a girl or boy is, and how to tell them apart, and what the difference in biological function is, a bit bonkers.

So, Boko Haram come to town and they want to murder the boys and kidnap the girls. How do they know which is which? HOW HOW HOW??? It's a mystery.*

It's baffling, isn't it. The whole world actually knows how to tell the sex of one human from another - yet even on this thread you've got people twisting themselves in knots trying to pretend it's impossible to tell.

hazeyjane has made such sensible posts on this thread.

Elendon, the article from The Guardian was a point of reference perhaps for those that wished to look in to it a little more, rather than just taking what some people say on here as gospel. I do not want to derail the thread citing other literature regarding the occurance of DSD/intersex traits, but it really isn't as rare as SOME people perceive. Unfortunately there isn't much awareness.

I think I agree with all of that, third.

And I do think that for young people being "non binary" or one of the other 100s of genders + combinations with all the sexualities (demiromatic etc) is the equivalent of me dressing up all in black when I was young - it's a tribal thing.

It's when you get onto the drugs / surgery that I get worried.

And the language stuff -the very real impact it has on women and girls if there is no word to describe them as a group any more.

The stuff around giving pervy men (of which there are many) a reason to loiter where they shouldn't be & prisons & crime stats & all that stuff as well.

I brought up the issue in my son's all boys school (though the sixth form is mixed) regarding the phrase 'boy's will be boy's'. It certainly wasn't allowed to be an excuse for bad behaviour in his mixed primary.

To answer the OP's question, no I've not come across this and I sat in the Relationships and Sex parent and governor sessions in primary school to help reformulate it. Our main focus was respect for space and views regarding relationships. Consent was important too. This overlapped with sex regarding changes in body and the influence of the internet, especially mobile phones.

sarahnova "There is no neat answer to this question." …there is because you gave it a moment after you wrote that.

" About all we can say for sure is that some people are biologically capable of creating sperm, and some people are biologically capable of creating eggs and/or growing a foetus, and some people aren't capable of either." But all the people capable of creating sperm are male, and even those who cannot create sperm (a pretty small group) are part of that group, male, XY chromosomes. Likewise people (women) capable of creating eggs/growing a foetus and even women who can do neither, are female, XX chromosomes..

foodtime "I honestly don't understand how your children learning about people who are slightly different then you fills So many with fear." Learning about people are different does not fill me with fear. Having the language girls can use to discuss the experience of being girls, being able to identify as girls etc, having that taken away, now that does fill me with fear. How will girls explain that so many experience sexual harassment at school if they cannot express that they receive this because they are girls and the people sexually harassing them are boys!

The title of this article on the subject show the hypocrisy of talking about gender diversity, while denying biological reality... and limiting all school students to just ‘students’ or children’.

Schools told to stop calling pupils boys and girls in gender diversity drivel

"Just because you don't understand something does not make it not true."

I have read and watched a lot to understand the truth of this. Spoken to many trans people, on line. There are indeed some people who feel they would have been happier if they have been born the opposite sex and some who live with others perceiving them to be the opposite sex (in that they pass as members of the opposite sex and have had their body altered). There are also plenty of people who dress in clothes normally associated with the opposite sex but where people are fully aware they were born male, so in terms of 'living as a woman' that really does not mean they will be treated as women.

Very young children will not understand any of this. Those who have a genuine dysphoria should be helped. And no one should ever be bullied for anything. But this issue is a real minefield and the teaching of this pink brain/blue brain crap must be stopped as it is unreal and very harmful.

www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

Plus there are a number of young women who attempt to transition and then stop, realizing that many other issues have propelled them into this situation.

There are quite a lot of women on the internet talking about detransitioning. Just imagine how scary this could all be if they had gone for full medical transitions, what they would have lost.

Promoting this is kind of thing is not a neutral stance, it is not, be accepting of this for yourself now and you can change back later, you can, but at what cost?

NONE of this means I personally do not want to support trans people or encourage an accepting and kind environment for all students but let’s be honest, we really need to know a lot more about this before we start promoting it to children aged 7 or 11. Surely?

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe that sounds really good stuff. I like that it was about being inclusive and breaking down gender stereotypes which affect everyone. People shouldn't be bullied because they like/don't like football, the length of their hair, whether they like pink/blue.

And not linging people up by gentitals means that hopefully they won't have the impression that adults think those are the defining qualities in the classroom and reduce sterotype threat.

trans has nothing to do with intersex though.

Many intersex people get really fucked off with more vocal trans activists using them in their arguments.Most trans people are not intersex.

Actually plenty of "old style" transexuals fucked off with those vocal TAs as well.

And many feminists.

Women.

Lesbians.

Increasing numbers of gay men....

I don't understand how this creed that does not stand up to scrutiny at all has gained so much traction so quickly. Is it because it props up traditional ideas in a seemingly progessive way?

not lining people up by genital type*