To be HORRIFIED that this might be taught in my daughters school

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

Have any of you come across this? Do you know if this, or other lessons have been presented to your primary (or secondary) age children?

www.transgendertrend.com/teaching-transgender-doctrine-in-schools-a-bizarre-educational-experiment/

Venus

Why thank you! First big online discussion I've had about it, but read a lot on the topic in the last year. Nice to get the chance to put my thoughts together coherently

"most cowboys I've met are pretty macho, more macho than you average bloke."
Most cowgirls I've met are more macho than your average bloke.
Actually, in all honesty, without pretending that the average cowboy would ever be called a feminist (or ally, if you'd rather), having worked alongside a few, there's never been any suggestion that you shouldn't, or can't, do the job because you're "a girl". If you pull on the boots, you're expected to pull your weight. I appreciate that.

One of the problems I think I run into, discussing feminist issues on MN is that I was raised in, and live in, a different culture than most of the people in the conversation. And one of the differences is in the expectation of gender roles - not trying to imply better or worse, just different. There's also a small barrier, I think, around precise definitions of words. It seems to lead to misunderstandings and stuff.

Regarding the idea that non-binary ideology is subversive; it really is the reverse. Because saying 'some people fit into their 'assigned gender' box and others don't' is.... erm... binary.

^

Ninja

That's true too, but nobody's suggesting cowgirls are boys! That's essentially my argument, be as you wish, it should not matter that you are a boy or a girl, do what you want, be how you want, wear what you want. We don't need to get our knickers in a twist rewriting history or biology. And yes I'd say cowboy's are not nec feminist allies (I think a few voted for Trump!) but I'd agree they are pretty fair. And I think that's all most women want, a fair crack at things. I'm misquoting a famous feminist quote, we don't want concessions for our sex, just that men take their boot off our necks.

And I've spent most of my life fighting against gender role expectations. I'm actually quite 'feminine' in how I look most of the time (mucking out horses not excepted, regularly going to the shops in shitty stinking wellies with hay in my hair and REALLY don't care!) but not in my views or personality really, I've never accepted I'm inferior due to my sex (been raped, been in an abusive relationship, been scared witless by men like most women) but the idea that just because I'm a girl I'm not as good as a boy was always just nonsensical to me. If I speak I expect to be listened to and not interupted, happy to stick up for myself, fairly secure in my views. Learned a long time ago that male approval is a hiding to nothing.

My parents are sexist, they had very low expectations of me, and very different expectations of me and my brothers, even animated conversation was shushed so I didn't sound 'shrill'. I've got a really high IQ but even now my mother will say 'your bath needs a clean' lol. All that crap. She even said to me not long ago (I'm grown up now :-) ) - no wonder you haven't got a husband, men don't like clever women. These days I just look at her as if she's from mars, but as a teenager that kind of stuff just really confused me! I'm not married by choice, it's never really appealed to me, and not lately met a fella who I think, yeah OK let's give it a whirl. Not scared of being alone, earn my own money, quite happy with my lot, what's the big deal.

However, I'd be lying if I said my path to getting there was easy, it wasn't. My girlhood was PROFOUNDLY painful, there was a lot of rage, pain, self doubt and self loathing. Being pretty, smart and having low self esteem are not a good combo in my experience! Really hurt myself and got lost along the way.

That's why the more I read on this trans stuff, the more militant I've become about it. I'm really very clear what I think, I worked hard to claim my dignity as a woman and I'm jiggered if some cross dressing dude with a lady fetish is taking it away from me, or the language I need to articulate my experience, and share with other women.

I have no problem with trans people, but this thing is bigger than that, there is a nasty, dark, dominant, and very misogynist thread to trans politics, I really do think it's a line in the sand the likes of which feminism hasn't had to grapple for a few generations. I'm womanning the barricades (to steal a line from a fellow fighter)

"Because saying 'some people fit into their 'assigned gender' box and others don't' is.... erm... binary."
Surely binary means that everybody fits into one 'box' or the other - some people don't fit into either 'box'. Non-binary, based on my understanding of the words, is not always the same as trans, because trans only gives you two options - male or female - but non-binary seems to give you at least four.

Ninja

The entire point is nobody is binary. Think about the cover of the Female Eunuch. I know Greer is deeply unfashionable these days, but just think about it for a minute. Why did she choose a 'woman suit' with handles on the hips. Why was it disembodied? Why indeed did she choose the word 'eunuch'?

This non binary argument misses the point. Nobody is binary. All smart women know being feminine is a 'performance' that's why Simone de Beauvoir said, a woman is not born but made.

Being socialised as female means learning the rules, and I don't know about anyone else, being female for me was a huge experience of being 'wrong' most of the time ...

Non binary is insulting for a start, but it also assumes that most people are 'comfortable' with gender roles, and that's just not true.

It's also just really presumptous, feminism (I don't mean chats on MN, I mean proper academic women's studies) have explored this in depth for aeons, and we are shouted down and told to shut up as bigots when we point out the flaw in the binary argument, it's really disrespectful.

Surely binary means that everybody fits into one 'box' or the other

Exactly. Which is why it's nonsense - whether those two boxes are labelled 'male' and 'female', or 'cis' and 'trans', or 'binary' and 'non-binary'.

It's not subversive simply to rename and/or redefine boxes.

It's subversive to realise that we don't need the boxes, and act accordingly.

"the idea that just because I'm a girl I'm not as good as a boy was always just nonsensical to me."
See, I think this is where I tend to lose context in this conversation. I was raised by a pack of old-school 1970s-era feminists, and I didn't really run across this attitude until I was an adult. I was aware, in an abstract sort of way, that some people believed it, but nobody I knew was saying it.
Which didn't protect me from emotionally abusive relationships either as a child or as an adult, incidentally, but it obviously did influence the way I look at the world. Sexism doesn't feel inevitable to me.

How does that feeling sort of interact with places where there are laws against women doing certain things, or when hearing about the "missing millions" of girls in China & India, or reading about the Taleban or whathaveyou.

If we don't experience something directly I'm not sure you can really "get it" - 100% - but at the same time when you have situations where sexism is 100% inevitable, for a woman or girl, at X point in time or place, how does that work with the not getting the context thing?

I mean, I can't imagine, I mean really understand, what it feels like to go and live in a cowshed and get denied my usual food, by my parents, because I'm having my period. But even though I can't really feel what that feels like, I can understand that for that girl there is little choice - for her in her time and place it is pretty inevitable that that is going to happen. That is a simple fact of life where she lives. And these are children - the options to not go along with it are limited.

It doesn't mean that I don't think sexism exists, Queen. Of course it exists, and it's terrible, and it's damaging, and it needs to be stopped. What I meant was that some women assume that all men are sexist until proven otherwise (and even then, they might be suspicious), but I don't. Which, also, doesn't mean that I've never experienced sexism, because of course I have.

Applause for GirlScout and Queen. Read tft and, really, you have said it all so well - supported by many others - that I can't think of anything to add. Some of the posts here deserve framing.

Ah OK you mean it doesn't feel inevitable for you personally, that you will experience sexism, or that men will be sexist. That seems fair enough and quite standard really! I mean imagining that everyone will be sexist if you live in US or UK is a bit strong. TBH as well I find that women are as likely to be as sexist as men.

Although I suppose it depends how you define sexist. The girl in the village where the girls have to go to the cowshed. Is it reasonable for her to assume all men will be sexist? Or, as their views are normal for that part of the world, does it not count as sexism, and a sexist would be someone who has even sterner views about menstruating girls?

It's an interesting question - it is indeed all a matter of perspective.

Is it sexist to tell women that they aren't to talk about periods? In relation to the topic at hand. So, we are told that rather than saying "girls have to go to the cowshed when they have their period as they are considered unclean" it becomes "menstruators have to go to the cowshed" etc.

I find this really, well actually it's not acceptable.

What words can we have which mean, person with a dick, person with a vagina? We clearly need some, to talk about sexism etc. The "identify as" thing doesn't work as you can't go and find out how eg the individual girls in that part of nepal identify.

And can we say "sexist". This refers to sex. Not gender. Is this going to be abolished soon as well?

It's interesting that you've decided to gender my child as male, William considering the fact that I didn't give any indication one way or another.
"If he ever wants to have children then he will see the importance of biology. He also has the privilege of never having to worry about biology in the same way women do."
As it turns out, we're talking about a biological female, who is in an active sexual relationship with a biological male, and who does not want, has never wanted, doesn't particularly like, and probably will never want, children. Who, for that reason, is absolutely meticulous about birth control.

I wouldn't read too much into that ninja. I didn't scroll back to your post and thought you had said "my son..." (As in the male sex). My apologies. Your DD being meticulous about birth control is evidence that she is aware of biology in any case.

And however unpleasant people keep saying it might be to be a teenage girl, we both agree that, honest to God, neither of us would take cash money to be a 14 year old boy for a week.

I wouldn't take cash to be a 14 year old girl for a week either. Not sure how that relates to anything.

prawns

prawn, even

prawns are nice too though

Thanks for the feedback :-)

But you were lucky, of course sexism isn't inevitable, that's why I'm a feminist, it's based on false premise! There's nothing inherent in the femaleness of women that could ever possibly justify the horrible (and frankly downright depraved) things men to do them and children. You grew up with that reaffirmed to you over and over, and I clambered out the bottom of a very deep well to get there myself.

I don't agree that all men aren't sexist in the truest sense, most men look at porn, most men keep quiet when other men say sexist things, ALL men (inc trans women) benefit from male privilege whether the acknowledge it or not or are comfortable with it or not. Because patriarchy is a system that we all live within. I can't think of one guy I know, and I know some NICE blokes, who don't get a bit arsey when you point out they are interrupting, or tut when you point out they've taken both armrests on the train seat or whatever, they just haven't had to think about it like we think about it.

It boils down to this (not sure if this is an urban legend or actually real but in anycase it demonstrates my point). Match.com did a survery asking men and women what was the thing they were most scared of in dating.

Men said: Ridicule. We're frightened women are going to laugh at us.

Women said: we're frightened they are going to kill us.

It's simply NOT THE SAME growing up male and female in our culture.

I agree women police other women and reinforce sexism but I don't agree that man can be oppressed because of his sex, his class yes, his race, his economic circumstances, but not his sex. It's like claiming white people suffer racism, there might be micro instances, but it's not systematic oppression that infuses all institutions, the justice system, politics, economics.

I've just nipped to Sainsbury's and in the car I was thinking as I drove about the male counter argument of 'ah ha but men die in wars' etc, most guys I know have never fought in a war, but ALL women, every single one, that I know, have experienced sexism, from micro 'smile love', or 'nice tits' to abuse, to sexual attack, to lower wages, being followed home on a dark night. Because it's inherently built into our system.

And I appreciate how privileged I am, I'm white, I'm highly educated, sexism aside, I had a very comfortable upbringing, I'm in the top 1% of earners, I have LOTS of choices. That's not true of most women. Even the therapy I got that really helped me get comfortable with my femaleness and find some pride and dignity in it was expensive, if I was poor it'd be six shitty sessions of CBT over the phone.

And has been pointed out elsewhere, every woman living in the west, rich or poor, is streets ahead of the reality lived by most women and girls on the globe. I think as a woman who is relatively lucky, I have a responsibility to those that aren't so fortunate.

I think the thing that progressive liberals haven't quite grasped is trans and queer politics is inherently regressive and conservative. It's neoliberalism really. And women and kids are those most hurt by neoliberalism.

And frankly, if all you have to complain about is someone called you 'he' and didn't 'affirm your chosen identity' then that's the ultimate privilege ... it's a kind of affluenza, and a lazy one at that.

Personally I think students should stop all this jazz hands and safe spaces crap and go out there and listen to the Smiths, get pissed, have lots of sex and get water cannoned by the Police like normal people! We are witnessing the biggest transfer of wealth from poor to rich since victorian times, violence against women and girls is off the charts, and they are sitting around (usually white, male and middle class) complaining about being 'oppressed'. Well get in line buddy ...

I think that most people, throughout history, and throughout the world, just go along with whatever their cultural norms are without giving it much thought. Many of them, I suspect, always sort of know it's wrong but either don't know what to do about it or are afraid to go against it.

Some people, on the other hand, will always want to punish other people for being different than they are. We can call these people sexist, or racist, or homophobes, or whatever-ist-phobes, but mostly they're just arseholes.

Anyway, I'm going to step out of this conversation because I have other things to do this afternoon. I have to go to Toys R Us, gods help me.

I think anything that simplifies gender reassignment is misguided but spreading awareness that you should feel comfortable to vocalise that you feel like a boy or girl regardless of the body you were born into - what's the problem with that? No gender reassignment can happen without a long period of coucelling etc.etc it's not done on a wim.

People are born into the wrong bodies, it is a thing. Very isolating for young adults if they are not able to speak about that.

April - something like 70% of male-to-transwomen don't actually have surgery - they retain their penis. Now in some respects I don't blame them for that - the surgery sounds horrendous and is as likely to be unsuccessful as not. But these days "gender reassignment" consists in many cases of simply saying "I feel like a woman inside." No other changes made.

girlscout72 & Ninga, EXACTLY what you both said. 👏🏻

LOL good luck at toys are us, I'd be interested in your views on boy toys and girl toys whilst you are there

I think sexism is different from racism is different from homophobia, yes they intersect but they are not the same. Many right on Lefty Dudes I know would rather DIE than be considered racist or homophobic, but will quite casually lecture me on how I'm a dinosaur bigot because I don't want dicks in my safe spaces, and I'm a transphobe. Which brings me back to, they haven't really thought about it because they don't need to, it doesn't really affect them, which is patriarchy. Plus they don't really listen to women, have totally ignored the decades of academic study on this subject by women and about women, because once again that's patriarchy.

What does it mean to be born in the wrong body though. Are disabled people born in the wrong body. Were Dolly Parton born in the wrong body originally - she obviously had a different idea of what she should look like.

Ninja are you calling me dim?