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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be HORRIFIED that this might be taught in my daughters school

477 replies

NormaStanleyFletcher · 20/12/2016 13:47

Have any of you come across this? Do you know if this, or other lessons have been presented to your primary (or secondary) age children?

www.transgendertrend.com/teaching-transgender-doctrine-in-schools-a-bizarre-educational-experiment/

OP posts:
SallyInSweden · 21/12/2016 04:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NinjaLeprechaun · 21/12/2016 05:52

Except, Sally that there ARE cultural norms for biological women/men. No matter how much a person argues about the fact that there shouldn't be, they're there and we can all see them.
If you don't happen to 'fit' with these norms, whatever they happen to be where you are, then there are two options - either you pretend that you're exactly what people think you are (never a fully comfortable option, ime) or you say that you're not going to play by those rules.
If you go with the second option then, again, you have choices - you can pretend that these cultural rules don't exist, or you can believe that they aren't important or need to be changed, or you can decide that the other gender role is a better fit, or that neither are a good fit and so you refuse to be either.

Personally, due to my experience with seeing how genetics influence personality, I can't fully divorce the concept of gender from biology in my mind, so both groups probably disagree with me.

MistresssIggi · 21/12/2016 06:55

Atenco I have seen a thread on here asking women whether they had ever experienced sexual assault - 100% had, so the number in the general population for verbal abuse must surely be massive.
Trans and intersex aren't the same are they - so why are intersex statistics talked about so much? Do intersex people feel transgenderism is trying to copy them? I would imagine many in the general population imagine a transgender person to actually have an intersex condition.

SallyInSweden · 21/12/2016 07:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

M0stlyHet · 21/12/2016 07:41

Loopy, I'd also like to thank you for taking part in this discussion and for making intelligent and thoughtful contributions. I don't agree, but you are obviously doing us the courtesy of presenting a thought out position.

But I still have a major peak trans moment when I reead your rewrite of the Boko Haram atrocities. I don't know if you have read Orwell's 1984, but I'm reading something along the lines of "the nonconsensual removal from their homes and unwanted sex of underage persons assigned female at birth is double plus ungood." When what it should say is "the abduction and rape of girls is an abomination." (Incidentally, why do you think the oppression of women takes place? Is it a historical accident? Could it equally well have happened to another arbitrary group, e.g. blue eyed people? Or is it rooted in biology? Our unique vulnerability when pregnant or caring for infants? Biology which in no sense determines our personhood or worth or political agency - unless of course one does buy into the pink brain shit and think women are not wholly people. )

jellyfrizz · 21/12/2016 07:57

"The dangers don't exist because of the gender they've been raised as or how they identify. They exist because of their female biology."

This ^^
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/21/nepal-teenager-dies-banished-shed-menstruating

NinjaLeprechaun · 21/12/2016 08:42

"But Ninja you are still massively missing the points."
What point am I missing given that I've made no value judgement at all in this thread about the moral or social implications of this, or any other, view on the subject?

ICJump · 21/12/2016 08:51

jellyfritz that is awful but illustrates that biology trumps gender bullshit

WilliamHerschel · 21/12/2016 11:07

Firstly, gender by definition is a social construct. Even if it is true that men are more likely to have X personality type, it does not mean a man without X is a woman. In the same way a 5'3 man is not a woman just because men are usually taller than 5'3. If there are any attributes that are female/male-specific, then these would be due to sex. Not gender, as gender refers to "socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women. "

And as for the point about your son, ninja, he is wrong in saying biology doesn't matter or whatever he said. It's a load of crap. He might mean, he treats people equally regardless of their sex, which is great if true. But it's a lie to pretend he doesn't know the difference or realise he is male. If he ever wants to have children then he will see the importance of biology. He also has the privilege of never having to worry about biology in the same way women do. It reminds me a bit of the people who say "I don't see skin colour". Maybe well intentioned but it ignores the reality of people who suffer from racism for example. Pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 11:21

Ninja can you point to a few things that indicate gender? A while ago on the thread someone said something about it not just being about clothes etc. But clothes (and pronouns) do seem to be a massive area for trans people.

I'll give you one example, high heels. High heels are seen as almost exclusively a female thing in our society.

The only time you generally see men in any kind of heel is sometimes called a 'built up heel' I think, for example people who have a leg shorter (I know two people with this condition, so it is medical).

Or maybe (I think they call then) Cuban heels, on boots, are they favoured by salsa dancers?

Now you might find a man on stilts at the fair but generally won't find any man in heels except the examples given - unless they are purposely wearing 'women's clothing'.

What does this article of 'gender identity' do. I guess primarily it makes women look 'sexy' because it makes their legs look longer and their bum wiggle when they walk. Perhaps their whole body 'jiggles' as they move.

It also is quite harmful for women's backs, and feet. It can be dangerous as you can fall and twist or turn an ankle. If you get in any kind of trouble it is harder to run away.

What part of being a female lends itself to heels. It can't just be we are generally shorter than men , because even tall women wear heels.

So, it is not healthy or safe and makes us 'more attractive and maybe more sexually available to men'.

In that sense it is very like foot binding on China used to be.

It has 0 to do with biology and everything to with keeping women in their place.

I wear heels about twice a year. I don't object to anyone else wearing them. Wearing them or not wearing them doesn't make me a woman or not make me a woman. It is fashion/culture.

I think you can dp something similar with any of the gender stereotypes that are not related to biology.

ScootleHome · 21/12/2016 11:21

Late to the debate here but I have read the thread.

I think that psychologically gender identity does exist and my take on it goes like this.

At about the age of three children children realise that certain characteristics and expectations are associated with either boys or girls.

They realise that they are either a boy or girl and then associate those expected behaviours and characteristics with themselves. We can call these stereotypes if you like.

Later they will probably realise that a lot of this stuff is crap but subconsciously the association will still be there and it will be a benchmark which will affect the way they view themselves.

They may for example enjoy a hobby abitarily designated for the opposite sex but will be aware that they aren't supposed to like it and by doing so they are being non conformist.

A girl may be well aware that she is very good at maths and it is ridiculous to suggest that girls are less good at it. However being reminded that she is a girl and girls are not supposed to be good at maths just before a maths test is still likely (it's well documented) to lead to a lower score because subconsciously she associates herself with the concept of a girl.

I think it could be possible for a child to end up with a gender identity that didn't match their biological sex.

Girls and boys look pretty similar before puberty. So if for example you took a very young boy, dressed him as a girl, gave him a girl's name and told everyone including him that he was a girl then I expect he would end up with a female gender identity even if technically he understood his body was male.

Perhaps this could also happen for other reasons as well.

I am not sure though that a mismatch between biology and gender identity is the reason people are trans. There could be lots of different reasons.

People have suggested hating your body could be a big factor for teenage girls.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/12/2016 11:26

I think it could be possible for a child to end up with a gender identity that didn't match their biological sex.

Of course. That doesn't mean that their biological sex is incorrect though. Many people don't have a gender identity that matches that typically associated with their sex, many dont have a gender identity at all. That doesn't man their sex is wrong, just that they don't conform to gender stereotypes. And it's certainly not a reason for medical intervention.

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 11:27

Cross posted with William! Excellent points. Totally ignoring racism does not make it disaspear it just makes it harder to talk about.

So if gender is just fashion and culture it is very fluid and flexible and it does not define one as female or male. A person can ditch their heels. But we can't so easily ditch our wombs and vaginas. And what is sometimes presented in trans ideology appears to be that you can ditch those things and be male, because being female is so hard.

Now, I do genuinely think there are some females who choose to do this and are happier for it but many others, like the de-transitioning women whose links I posted yesterday, who are not.

Perhaps where woman are unhappy being pushed into these female gender roles and actually want to just be free to be woman, perhaps to be lesbians and they are being encouraged by a group mentality to consider transitioning.

I think unlike trans women, who often keep their penis, these woman/trans men have issues with their body, not because it is wrong but because society has taught then so many wrong things about their bodies! Like their bodies are public property, they are defined by they breast size, their value is in their typical feminine beauty/their lack of value is on their lack of typical feminine beauty.

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 11:31

Scootlehome "...being reminded that she is a girl and girls are not supposed to be good at maths just before a maths test is still likely (it's well documented) to lead to a lower score because subconsciously she associates herself with the concept of a girl"

KnitsBakesAndReads · 21/12/2016 11:32

I think it could be possible for a child to end up with a gender identity that didn't match their biological sex.

The question I keep coming back to though, is what exactly is a gender identity, other than conformity (or non-conformity) with society's expectations of a man or a woman. I know I'm a woman because I recognise my body as female. I don't know what it would mean to "feel like a woman" and I've still not seen anyone explain this in a way that seems to make sense.

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 11:33

By 'concept of a girl' do you mean other people's expectations of her as a girl?

Language needs to be used carefully. She is not a concept of a girl. She is a girl. A young female. But society has told her because of that she must be crap at maths. Do you mean that?

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 11:42

Scooterhome sorry I meant to link those last two posts but my phone got stuck!

So your post seems to suggest (please correct me if wrong) that you regonise these gender ideas as constricted falsely yet still place some value on then? That a boy with a gender of a girl should mean something other than gender is made up shit.

I mean it is real. It is tangible. We can see it and document it, I don't think anyone has said it is not real, we have said it is a construct. Much like the constructs around race. That white people can't dance and black people are good at singing.

Would anyone support a white woman, who was good at dancing, to become black because she didn't fit the 'white people can't dance stereotype'!

Actually, I am showing my age, that stereotype was very much around in the 80s but I doubt you hear it now. It's rightly recognised as a racial stereotype and damaging.

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 11:43

Late to the debate also but been following with interest. The thing that confuses me is that gender identity seems to vary from era to ear and culture to culture, so the idea that they are 'innate' or 'fixed' seems a bit strange.

For example, at the turn of the last century, it was extremely shocking for a woman to wear slacks. If you don't believe me, 'women and trousers' has it's own wikipedia entry. Women could and often were fined for wearing trousers. Then along came WW2, and women whose clothing was rationed, and whose husbands were away started wearing their husbands clothes for the war effort (that was another huge change, women working outside the home, when the argument that women staying at home was 'natural') - trousers were practical and it meant that women could save their clothing coupons for things they actually wanted. At the time there were raised eyebrows that women wearing trousers was 'not natural' and that women would become 'too masculine'.

Today we would not and do not bat an eyelid when a woman wears a pair of trousers. And we are not confused by it either. Everyone knows it's a woman in slacks - whether she be wearing jeans, a power suit, an army uniform. We are not confused if she's young, middle aged, lesbian, even butch, she's still a woman wearing trousers. Contrast that with our current response if a little boy wants to wear a dress.

Back in the 80s when I was a teenager, I vividly remember the hoo ha when Boy George rose to fame. Here was a gay biological male wearing dresses and playing around with gender stereotypes with his hair and make up. I can remember the press specualtion, was he gay? Was he androgenous? Was he a woman? It seems to me we have no confusion that he's a gay man playing around with gender roles. Same with Eddie Izzard now, he's a man, he's straight, he's in high heels, make up, has a beard, wears a pinstripe suit and nail varnish. It's not even shocking really.

I think the problem with this debate is it conflates sex and gender. Sex cannot be changed, gender is a moveable feast. Gender is also not binary, it's hierarchial - in our culture masc characteristics are definitely viewed as more valuable as fem characteristics, which is why most jobs that require feminine characteristics (caring, nurturing, listening) are so badly paid vs jobs that require masc characteristics (aggression, cool rationality, ruthlessness e.g. merchant banking).

I have a very old copy of a Wive's Manual called the Total Woman - it's not a spoof, it's a handbook, written in the 50's that tells women how to be a good wife. There are things in it like, always rise before your husband wakes and apply make up, he must never see your bare face. Or wait until he's gone to work before you use the toilet to empty your bowels. Or when he comes home from work make sure to never complain about your day. Stuff that even the most adamantly 'not a feminist' girly girl today would laugh at.

Again if 'gender' is innate, how come it changes so much. Are we saying that if a man wanted to be trans in Saudi Arabia, all he'd have to do is don a Burqua and stop driving and that's it, job done?

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 11:58

PS, following the above link, the same website that has produced this article referenced in this thread have produced their own counter-advice for schools with regard to sex and gender. Personally I think it'd be more beneficial to our young people to focus on breaking down gender stereotypes than teaching them they are innate and if you don't conform to them you are in the 'wrong body':

•Offer a unisex school uniform of trousers or shorts for all or a choice of trousers or skirts for both girls and boys. Lift any hair-length restrictions which are for only boys. Explicitly apply jewellery and make-up restrictions to both girls and boys equally. Allow both girls and boys to wear hair slides
•Get children to line up/sit in groups based on something other than their sex
•Provide storybooks and factual books about real people who challenge gender stereotypes
•Encourage both boys and girls to participate in non-stereotypical activities/sports/subject choices
•At primary level, provide times when only typical "boys' toys" or "girls' toys" are put out to play with so that children are not always pressured to follow members of their own sex in their choices
•Consciously try to acknowledge children for non-stereotypical attributes, eg praise a girl for being brave, compliment a boy on his appearance; ask some "strong girls" to help move the table, ask some "caring boys" to look after a classroom pet
•Invite in adults to speak who defy gendered expectations in their professions eg. a female firefighter, a male nurse
•Notice and reinforce behaviours which go against stereotype, show approval to the confident girl who puts up her hand to speak and the thoughtful boy who sits and waits patiently for another child to finish speaking
•Watch out for, and gently challenge children when they say things like "you can't do ballet, you're a boy" or "girls are no good at maths"
•Allow boys to take the female part and girls to take the male part in plays and performances
•Be a role model
•Reference people who defied gender stereotypes throughout the curriculum, eg. in History, Science and Art lessons find the female pioneers and role models who are usually brushed out of history
•Teach gender and sex-role stereotyping directly, including media representation of men and women: equip young people to be critical media consumers
•Make challenging gender stereotypes an integral part of your school ethos from nursery upwards, as the basis of boys' and girls' ability to see each other (and themselves) as human beings first
•Have no tolerance of the words 'girl' or 'girly' used as insults or to imply weakness or lack of status
•Point out examples of sexism in storybooks/fairytales etc
•Teach children and adolescents the difference between the terms 'sex' and 'gender' and make sure you use the correct term when speaking about issues in PSHE classes, for example sexual orientation (heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual) is based on sex, not gender
•Teach brain science and dispel the myth of "pink brains" and "blue brains"
•Encourage questioning and critical thinking around cultural messages and societal expectations

Italiangreyhound · 21/12/2016 12:00

Excellent post girlscout

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/12/2016 12:01

Same with Eddie Izzard now, he's a man, he's straight, he's in high heels, make up, has a beard, wears a pinstripe suit and nail varnish.

Last I saw he had decided he was trans...

I love your list though, I try and do that with DD, it's depressing how much this gender stuff just seeps in.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 21/12/2016 12:04

Great stuff girlscout

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 21/12/2016 12:05

That list is excellent.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 21/12/2016 12:06

The organisation who is doing this stuff is definitely government funded by the way.

www.gov.uk/government/news/awards-announced-from-2-million-homophobic-bullying-fund

OP posts:
ScootleHome · 21/12/2016 12:22

Knits and Italian, By gender identity I mean you have taken society's expectations of your sex (as discussed these could vary wildly depending on your culture) internalised them and applied them to your sense of self even if you bitterly disagree with them.

For example. My three year old boy comes home from nursery.
Ds: I'm not cute mummy I'm a boy.
Me: Well I think you're really cute and you're definitely a boy.
Ds: No only girls are cute.

Later DS will question these ideas but they will remain with him at some level making him think that he ought not to be cute/vulnerable/needy.

I do think the same thing can happen with racial stereotypes. I once watched a documentary in which children were shown a picture book and asked to choose which character they thought was the bad guy. All but one child pointed to the character who was black. Depressing stuff even more so when you consider that some of the children were black. What is that doing to their sense of themselves?

There is this awesome book by Cordelia Fine called Delusions of Gender. I think everyone should read it.

Anyway whilst it's main focus is to explain what a load of gibberish those pink/blue brain experiments are it also explains how we construct our sense of self and gender and how that can affect us.