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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be HORRIFIED that this might be taught in my daughters school

477 replies

NormaStanleyFletcher · 20/12/2016 13:47

Have any of you come across this? Do you know if this, or other lessons have been presented to your primary (or secondary) age children?

www.transgendertrend.com/teaching-transgender-doctrine-in-schools-a-bizarre-educational-experiment/

OP posts:
GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 13:32

Sorry rudely mixed my pronouns there, he lived as a man and he dressed as a man but was a biological female ...

ScootleHome · 21/12/2016 13:42

Girl Scout - that's what I meant. That transman didn't pass. The fact that she dressed as man and felt like she ought to be a man or was a man (I can't see inside her head) didn't make any difference to the taxi driver who correctly identified her biological sex as being female and then raped her.

Anyway even if you do pass it's not a solution to sexism. It will only work for that individual and will involve massive side affects to health and fertility.

It's like the modern version of a fairytale where the princess gets disguised as a knight (it would have been hard to tell under all that armor right?) and gets to go and have lots of fun adventures. Not all the princesses stuck in their castles will be able to take that way out.

MrsMattBomer · 21/12/2016 13:46

venusinscorpio

Well equally men should be able to have the same treatment, but they're not.

There was a big to-do in the press recently because a woman was refused service at a barber's that only catered to men, and the barber nearly went bust because of the continued press coverage and people didn't want to be seen as supporting it. So now they've had to take on someone who can actually cut female hairstyles and it's pretty much ruined a gent's barbers that was catered to an old fashioned style (they still used old mechanical dubbers and straight razors).

When something is men-only it's sexist, but when it's women-only it's about safety. Spoiler alert - most men aren't rapists or perverts. I find it a bit offensive myself, as a woman, suggesting that women need a space safe from men because all men are going to immediately rape us at the first opportunity. How backwards!

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 13:49

scootlehome sorry yes I was agreeing with you, that probably didn't come across!

Completely agree. And actually 'passing' sort of reinforces sexism, you've abandoned 'woman' and joined the other team, rather than stood with women and fought it.

The female to male detransition stories talk about that also, the relief at passing and being included as 'one of the guys' and then the complete shock and horror and discomfort at the utterly disgusting ways men talk about women when they think no women are around. Some of the stories talked about that, increasing unease at being expected to join in 'as a man' ...

Detransition seems to be really really complex, but the one thing most of those stories keep coming back to is 'I didn't need testosterone, I needed feminism' :-)

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 13:53

BTW I'd say the same thing about women who are 'surrendered wives' or play up to masculine expectations of femininity as well, they also reinforce sexism. I'm not blaming transmen for their choice to try and 'escape' ... I think all women to some extent are walking that tightrope day to day. Even going on the Tube, my first act is to scan the carriage for 'nutters' and try and stay safe. Ditto being chatted up in a bar, I was trying to explain this to a male friend who was moaning about how hard it is to approach women, and I said, 'Don't forget, she's not only sizing up whether she likes and fancies you, but whether you are also going to murder her in the carpark when she leaves the bar' ...

I understand why women play up to femininity and wanting to be 'looked after' by a man, what's the old feminist saying, 'you swap subservience to one man for protection from all the rest' ...

ScootleHome · 21/12/2016 13:56

MrsMattBorner

I have never met a woman in real life who hasn't been sexually assaulted at some point in their life. For most it happens multiple times.

Women have excellent reason to be concerned.

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 14:01

MrsMattBomer

96% of all murders worldwide are committed by men
By law, rape requires a penis
90% of all domestic violence is committed by men, including to other men
Paedophiles (can't find the link to check) are overwhelmingly men
One in four girls as opposed to one in 20 boys are sexually abused in childhood

#notallmen is a red herring, we know that, they're our dads, brothers, boyfriends, colleagues.

However, it is denying reality to say that men are not the main perpetrators of violence - they are - and that women are overwhelmingly the victims.

There is not ONE documented case of a transwoman being attacked in a men's loo, there is however a growing list of attacks of women in women's loos by men claiming to be trans.

And that's before we start talking about intimate care of the elderly, women's sports and safe spaces - if I was raped and said to the police and the rape crisis centre that I only wanted to talk to a woman, under the proposed changes a man with 'lady feelings' who looked like a man, dressed like a man, sounded like a man (ie was a bloody man) would be a 'woman'. That's offensive to women and it's not safe either. When I go for a smear test, and say I want a woman, I don't want it to be a man who feels like a woman, based on some made up shite about his 'pink brain' messing about with my lady bits!

Most good men respect women's boundaries, I don't want my nieces to have to endure a naked man flapping his penis around in their swimming changing rooms (that's happened already, look it up). When I was kid and went swimming, the gallery was full of pervy men in macs with kodak camera's. Today only parents with a ticket are allowed in the public gallery, and yet you are saying that ANY MAN should be allowed in my changing room? I don't think so.

venusinscorpio · 21/12/2016 14:38

In what way are men not allowed to have male sex segregated intimate spaces, MrsMattBomer?

The haircut thing is different. The barber shop is not sex segregated for reasons of safety, privacy and dignity and was not obliged to employ someone "who can actually cut female hairstyles". They didn't have to change their business model. They could offer the same basic services to any women who wish for a cheaper cut that they have always offered to men. Don't you think it's wrong that women often have to pay much more for a simple blunt trim? Not everyone wants a complicated style.

MrsMattBomer · 21/12/2016 15:20

venusinscorpio

No they didn't have to change the business model but how many women really want a short back and sides and a straight razor shave? Their point was that the local paper and WI was organising a boycott and picketing outside their shop, so their usual customers wouldn't come. Sorry, but that's wrong.

GirlScout72

I don't deny any of those figures and nor do I think any bloke off the street should be able to just walk into a pool to watch people swimming. If he's actually swimming himself then I see no issue with well protected unisex changing rooms.

But again, it's a minority isn't it? Why should all men be punished because of the actions of some people? I just think it's incredibly unfair.

DJBaggySmalls · 21/12/2016 15:26

MrsMattBomer
suggesting that women need a space safe from men because all men are going to immediately rape us at the first opportunity

You've never seen anyone say that. I think you must be aware of that.
I dont want a penis in my changing room, get over it.

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 15:39

Mrs Matt Boner

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 15:41

Sorry I called you 'boner' and not 'bomer' - freudian slip :-)

venusinscorpio · 21/12/2016 16:01

MMB

Why is it "punishment" for men to not to be able to access female sex segregated spaces? It's not just about physical safety, as I've repeatedly said.

WilliamHerschel · 21/12/2016 16:23

But again, it's a minority isn't it? Why should all men be punished because of the actions of some people? I just think it's incredibly unfair.

How are all men being punished?

WilliamHerschel · 21/12/2016 16:23

Sorry didn't see your post venus!

NinjaLeprechaun · 21/12/2016 16:43

It's interesting that you've decided to gender my child as male, William considering the fact that I didn't give any indication one way or another.
"If he ever wants to have children then he will see the importance of biology. He also has the privilege of never having to worry about biology in the same way women do."
As it turns out, we're talking about a biological female, who is in an active sexual relationship with a biological male, and who does not want, has never wanted, doesn't particularly like, and probably will never want, children. Who, for that reason, is absolutely meticulous about birth control.
And who is actually quite "girly" in a lot of ways. Go figure.

And however unpleasant people keep saying it might be to be a teenage girl, we both agree that, honest to God, neither of us would take cash money to be a 14 year old boy for a week.

Modern working cowboys often wear heeled boots because they're practical. But I'm pretty sure that nobody thinks a guy who'll jump off a horse at full gallop to manually wrestle a cow to the ground - as some rodeo cowboys do - is any less manly because his butt wiggles when he walks. A bit dim maybe, but that's another conversation.

If I say that people who are gender-fluid/nonconforming don't think biology has a place in gender identity that doesn't mean that this is my opinion - so I can't defend it for any of you, sorry. Likewise, if I were to say that culturally imposed gender roles are always inherently damaging that doesn't mean that it's my opinion and that I can defend it for you. Nor if I said that gender and biology are inextricably linked.

I do think it's amusing that 'feminists' (and I use inverted commas because I don't think there's a consensus on what a feminist must or mustn't believe) and those who see the world as non-binary (many of whom are also feminists) basically look at societies rules for gender and they think the same thing - this isn't working and needs to be changed. It's only the way they think it has to change that's different. One group thinks that the system has to be completely destroyed, the other that it should be subverted.
As a rule I'm more in favour of subversion, it suits my personality, but to be honest I'm not at all sure I have an opinion on this one at all. I can see salient points to both arguments and I can see flaws in both arguments.

venusinscorpio · 21/12/2016 16:55

What's remotely subversive about non-binary ideology? "I'm soo amazing and special and all the other boring "cis" people can stay in their boxes while I need another category for beautiful, fantastic amazing me". Narcissistic, more like.

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 17:04

venusinscorpio

Damn right! Plus it isn't binary in the first place, it's not a spectrum horizontally, it's vertical, hierarchical ... feminine at the bottom and masculine at the top.

Plus I resent the assumption that people ARE binary, like you say. Nobody is binary. And I very much doubt that a working cowboy (met a few, and working cowgirls also) would nip down the saloon in a pair of Manolo's after work - one pair of heels being much like another. It'd be brokeback mountain with tyre irons in the parking lot, and we all know it.

I find it amusing that 'women' bandy the term feminism around in such a off hand way as well, as without it they'd all be at home, unable to work, unable to leave home without their father's permission, unable to get a divorce, rent a house, get equal pay or vote ... or have birth control or an abortion.

There isn't a consensus on what black activists believe, we don't call them "black activists" - there isn't a consensus on what scientists believe about the origins of the universe, we don't call them "scientists" ... that men's rights activists have highjacked the term feminism in places is a pity, doesn't mean feminism doesn't exist ...

Cis is a slur, we have perfectly adequate words for those born male or female and that's man and woman.

NinjaLeprechaun · 21/12/2016 17:09

"What's remotely subversive about non-binary ideology?"
Well if society says that "you have this biology so you have to fit into this box" then saying, "no, I can go in any box I want to go in, or both, or none" is subversion. It's not changing the rules, just making them meaningless.
And I'm old and cynical - I suspect that roughly 90% of people Millennials are narcissists, it's basically their defining characteristic.

Datun · 21/12/2016 17:10

If TRAs didn't demand access to women's spaces or insist they are actually women, I wouldn't have a problem at all. Many times a unisex option has been offered and vehemently declined in favour of the sex segregated one because that one forces people to validate their womanhood - NOT their gender presentation, their explicit assertion that they ARE women.

I would validate their gender presentation up the bloody wazoo. I loved the 80s with the new wave Romantics, Boy George, David Bowie etc. Funnily enough no one found it very controversial. It was a natural progression. 'Gender bending' was celebrated and then suddenly everything became very pink and blue and never the twain should meet.

ageingrunner · 21/12/2016 17:23

Why should all men be punished for the actions of a few?

Why indeed but why don't they fucking police each other instead of whining about not all men, and leaving the onus on women to not get raped? The majority of men who aren't sexually violent could solve the problem of male violence in about a week if they put their minds to it. As it is they put a massive amount of effort into namalting, with the assistance of some women, unfortunately Sad

NinjaLeprechaun · 21/12/2016 17:27

"And I very much doubt that a working cowboy (met a few, and working cowgirls also) would nip down the saloon in a pair of Manolo's after work - one pair of heels being much like another."
Yep, it was just the first example of "men in heels" that I thought of. I could have gone with Georgian men, in their heels, wigs and makeup, I suppose, but it's a bit outdated.
I've seen cowboys in drag, by the way. And met gay cowboys. Although they were not the same people.

"that men's rights activists have highjacked the term feminism in places is a pity, doesn't mean feminism doesn't exist ... "
Of course they exist. I was raised by feminists, myself. I used the commas in the first instance to make a point that they obviously did not speak for the feminists mentioned in the second instance. Maybe it was just a language fail.

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 17:32

Ninja

In that case women - feminists - did that 50 years ago, not that we got any credit for it!

The problem is, in their insistence that they are special snowflakes they are trampling on women and girls, particularly lesbians ... I'd really encourage you to go and do some reading on that, it's appalling.

I was reading a story yesterday about a transwoman playing on a university women's rugby team (as it turns out against RFU rules as he's a non transitioned non binary 'femme' whatever the fuck that is, I think that means a bit of an effeminate bloke on whatever day takes his fancy).

There was a brouhaha because the uni bar have desegregated the loos, so he nips for a pee, and scares the living daylights out of the girl in the loo who hadn't realised and wasn't expecting to see a man there. She was villified for being phobic, and he wept male tears about being really offended and said, 'if I hadn't been significantly bigger than her I'd have been more upset'

That people cannot see the irony of that statement beggars belief. I agree with Datun, I really do not care what people do, how they dress, how they present - see my previous comments about Boy George and Eddie Izzard - I do object however if they treat 'woman' like landing on the moon and want to stick a flag in it and shout 'it's ours now'. It is NOT controversial to say there are three sexual orientations, gay, straight or bi and two sexs, man and woman, and then what you do, dress, how you present is all fair game. Be as you wish.

The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance required to go along with it all would make your head hurt. I object that the American Midwifery Guidelines have already deleted the word 'woman' as this is offensive to 'women' who have dicks and 'men' who can have babies. Adult human females have babies, this is not an offensive thing to say. How do we talk about maternity outcomes for women and babies, if we can't say 'woman' or woman doesn't mean what we all know it means. Ditto say, cervical cancer rates - how do we make decisions about NICE guidelines, drug availability, survival rates etc if women with willies and a prostate are counted in that cohort? And you won't be surprised to learn that some TRAs are campaigning to include testicular cancer as a gynaecological disease! It's bonkers.

Language MATTERS, if words become uncoupled from their meanings then we are in trouble.

Plus, on the narcissicism, if your entire identity rests on getting everybody else to tiptoe around your neurosis and agree with your self perception, I'd argue that isn't subversive at all but incredibly dependent, needy and self-centred. Plus it's massively manipulative.

A bit like feminism has banged on about for aeons that being 'pretty and desirable' is a trap for women, as the power is in the male gaze and not in the one being gazed at. He can take his gaze away, and there'll always be someone more desirable, pretty, younger than you, it's a hiding to hating yourself. Much better to accept yourself as you are.

If your entire identity crumbles because someone calls you 'he' when you want to be called 'she' and yet you are a man, and you look like Les Dawson's mother in law impression, then I say that's a shite Gender Revolution. I don't care if you are a big burly bloke wearing a frock, seriously, far more important things to worry about, but don't ask me to deny reality.

GirlScout72 · 21/12/2016 17:38

Ninja

I hear you, and agree, but most cowboys I've met are pretty macho, more macho than you average bloke.

And yes gender norms vary from culture to culture and age to age, which was my original post re women and trousers. I was listening to something on radio 4 yesterday, that not all that long ago pink was for boys and blue for girls.

I personally think it's be far more subversive to be a David Bowie type, express yourself, be as you wish, turn convention on it's head and yet still be your biological sex.

We don't need to tie ourselves in knots to be progressive I don't think.

Peace, I'm getting RSI from all this typing (I'm an extremely fast typist because my parents, despite my excellent degree, sent me to secretarial college so I could get a 'little job' before I 'settled down with a nice chap' ... feminism saved my sanity, I'm not kidding!)

venusinscorpio · 21/12/2016 17:43