To think it's actually a lie when argue that suicide is always a selfish act, that others get hurt by it?

[ChristmasFuckOff]

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

I'm sick of all the stuff out there saying how if somebody commits suicide, there will be people devastated. That it's always selfish. Often people who are suicidal say they don't want to be a burden, is that not actually a reasonable argument?

I think a lot of people out there, with friends and family, can't seem to understand there are others out there who literally don't have good relationships. So it doesn't affect anyone else.

Many years ago I had a colleague in her 50s who was still utterly devastated by her adult son's suicide 30 years earlier, to the extent that she wept as she was telling me about it. As someone else said, it just passes the pain on.

My son hung himself 4 years ago, his younger brother found him. My eldest son had bipolar disorder and was terrified of his illness. He was convinced that dying was going to free us all of having to have him in our lives. His final words in his note were ' for what it's worth, I'm sorry'
He was unable to understand that we loved him because he couldn't love himself. He truly believed that he was destroying every relationship he had.
Losing him has been the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with, his brother had to make the call and tell us he was dead. His brother lives with his final sight of his brother being too awful to comprehend.
My son was ill, in exactly the same way my mum was. The difference was that mum had cancer, her illness was 'acceptable'. My mum died last year, I was with her at the end. Was her death selfish? No it was unavoidable, her cancer was too advanced. My son's illness was too advanced, his death was no different.
In my opinion, asking him to continue living just so we could avoid the pain of losing him was more selfish.
I love and miss him every single minute of every single day. He is my first thought in the morning and my last thought at night. I wish that he was still here with us, but not if he was still ill. Why would I want him to exist in pain and fear?
He deserved better but he was ill, he was failed by his mind in the same way mum was failed by her body.
Suicide is not selfish, I know that my son wasn't selfish. He was frightened and ill. He made a decision to end his suffering, we live with that decision every day. I don't like it but I do accept it because I love him.
I would much rather he hadn't died, but I feel like that about my mum and dad. I wish that they were still here as well. The difference is that their deaths were due to physical illnesses which are easier to accept.

One of my colleagues killed herself this year. I think she felt all alone and worthless that no one cared, ... the impact of her death has sent waves through our organisation. She was a highly respected cared about person, sadly missed and thought of often. i don't know if she thought no one would care too much. But we all do.

Daruma. What an incredibly insightful post.

Blanche, I did say it was normal as part of the process. And I think what you are describing is a bit different. For a start you say you're not judging her and you understand her reasons. And you talk about feelings of guilt as well as blame. I also think that throwing a terminal illness into the mix does slightly change things and possibly it doesn't really apply in those cases quite so much as perhaps just slightly changing and retiming your death to suit yourself in a way which makes it much worse for other people is different from someone who doesn't have the option of a pain relieved hospital death in the near future.

I'm talking more about things along the lines of Hazell's reply: this was completely selfish and we will never forgive you.

I've seen a few posts like that on here when this subject comes up especially on one recent thread in particular. I guess what I mean is when the response concentrates on the selfishness of the act to the exclusion of everything else. A lot of what you describe shows empathy towards her and that a lot of your concern was about the suffering the act inflicted on her and not on yourselves. I think there's a big difference between 'the idea of her suffering hurt us' and ignoring someone else's suffering to prioritise your own. E.g. My granddaughter has always been a huge inconvenience to us by not being 'normal' and this was her final selfish act of inconvenience to us.

ubi amazing post. I have thought those things too about how awful life is for my dc having such an ill mother. I'd love to read that literature if you could point me towards it.
I do have a savings account specifically for my dc to have mh support when they are older and will most likely need it after all they go through.

I can't vocalise how I feel succinctly enough about suicide. I am still reeling from my mother's attempt earlier in the year. I think what she did was selfish, the day she chose, the fact my toddler DD was there, my sister and her baby DS (my Dsis was over from abroad), we were having a celebratory day, with cake and balloons. She planned it so that we would all be there to find her.

I take it very personally. She lied to my face, she let both my sister and myself believe she was happy and content. We worry about her constantly and even more so now.

She revelled in the attention she got at the hospital, she said it was 'all about her'.

I can't rationalise my feelings, I think about it every day. She is still here, still alive. I have tried to help her for many many years, but obviously am just not good enough and the realisation of the necessity to let go is very hard as I am still a child when it comes to her.

I feel it is selfish. I am being selfish and so is she. It has been very interesting reading this thread and has added more understanding to my mind and more to ponder.

I had a failed attempt of suicide and the effect it has had on my husband after a failed one I couldn't imagine him if it was successful.

Judgements like whether or not suicide is selfish are a sure fire way to shut down someone who is suicidal asking for them help that might save their life. The first thing that suicide intervention training looks at is the assumptions and judgements that we have about suicide so people can put that to one side and be able to hear what's going on for someone who is suicidal. Asist training is really worth doing if you can, either through your work or privately if you can afford it. I've seen lots of professional who thought they knew about it have their eyes opened doing this.

In my opinion, asking him to continue living just so we could avoid the pain of losing him was more selfish.

This is exactly how I feel. I'm so very sorry for your loss, Daruma.

Hi all,

Many thanks for the many reports we have had about this thread.

@ChristmasFuckOff

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

We're sorry to hear this OP. We do post on threads about suicide as we know that potentially thousands of folks will read threads and only a small fraction will post on them and some will arrive at this thread having typed "suicide' into Google so we need to make sure we signpost to help where possible and when brought to our attention.

OP we do think that it would be best to seek real life help and support on this one, even a visit to your GP to say what you have posted here is a good start. We will post some numbers and links below for anyone who may need them.

Please contact the Samaritans, by emailing [email protected] or calling 116 123. You can also see the resources in our Mental Health webguide here.

Very best wishes from all at MNHQ.

My brother committed suicide. He committed suicide because he simply couldn't cope with breathing another minute, forget another day.

It wasn't selfish. I've never seen it as selfish.

I too have considered auicide and if I didn't have my Son or parents I would be dead by now. But I am not as depressed as my Brother and I would never expect someone with my Brothers mental illness to live in a constant torture.

Ah Tone, well that also touches on the fact we could have a very different conversation about suicide attempts which aren't suicide attempts at all but manipulative acts. Some of them will turn into accidental suicides, but in general they're a bit different.

I don't think it is a selfish act at all OP.

I've seen things from a few perspectives. I've worked in psychiatry and as a GP so I've consulted with people who are suicidal or have attempted suicide. I've had patients who've completed suicide and I've supported families and friends of those who've killed themselves. A family member killed herself, and more recently I've been suicidal.

No two people have the same reasons for killing themselves. These are extremely complex situations often with multiple causes.

If you look at the definition of selfish "lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure" then for some it could be considered a selfish act, but it depends on the reasoning behind that act for that person.

When I planned my own suicide I did it because the pain (emotional and physical) had become absolutely intolerable. It had gone on so long and I couldn't see that the pain would ever end. I started to become detached from reality. I thought that I wasn't real, that others people weren't real, that life was just an illusion. Through this I kidded myself that it wouldn't hurt anyone if I died because no-one really existed. I had a great job/house/family etc, but I also had a mental illness. I had people who had said to call them if I got to the point of suicide but I didn't want to call anyone, I just wanted to die.

My story is not the same as for others so I don't feel we can generalise. Also I don't think that we can "save" everyone. Sometimes, despite the best of interventions people will die by their own hand as a consequence of their illness, much like people will die of other medical conditions despite treatment.

There's a book called Night Falls Fast (Understanding Suicide) by Kay Redfield Jamison which is well worth a read if you're interested in the topic. She's a professor of psychiatry but also has bipolar disorder.

Pluto I don't think unifentified descendents necessarily means there would be no devastation if people knew, although I take the point there are some people who are very alone in the world - but that wasn't really my point. It was more that in all the cases I know about personally the people taking their own life presumably felt the same way as the OP, - that they wouldn't be missed, they were not needed, families better off without the 'burden' of them - and in their cases that is certainly not the case at all. What has been left behind is a lifetime of grief. I'm not passing judgment on whether that's a good enough reason to stay alive - just that the idea that family and friends would rather you were dead is nearly always wrong. Probably always wrong if you have family & friends.

ChristmasFuckOff

Selfish may be the wrong word when you take all of the persons situation in to account.

(harsh)

BUT others are affected by the decision. There have been several threads about this and they have all had an affect on those that read them. It will have an affect on the family, your friends, your work colleagues.
It will have an affect on the person that finds you, and it will have an affect on those that deal with the aftermath for your family (doctors, therapists etc.)
It will have an affect on those that see you die, or are part of the chosen method.
It is the pebble that causes the ripple in the lake.

But then, Boney, everything we do has a ripple effect. And as I said earlier, really that is asking someone so desperate they want to die to build a pyramid of the people who might be affected by their death.....and put themselves right at the bottom in terms of the importance of their feelings and desires. And these will often be people who in terms of their life are a lot better off: financially solvent, good mental and physical health, jobs, functional families and good friends. I can see why it wouldn't particularly be a persuasive argument to someone suicidal. Put yourself last, think of everybody else.

I think it is selfish, but sometimes carrying on is worse than being selfish. Sometimes everyone acts selfishly in order to protect their own interests. Suicide, in a warped way, is a extension of that.

I too have known people who have committed suicide, and although with some I didn't know them well, I do still wonder if I could have helped them, somehow.

Your posts are saying what I'd like to say, but far more eloquently Bill. Thank you.

My MILs suicide has affected the lives of many people. The people who found her suffered a lot of trauma.

I understand why she did it. I know that if she had been stopped, she would have tried again soon after.

But I wish she had not done it. I wish she felt that she could have kept trying, asked for help, believed that she had a life worth living. I believe that she has missed so much that would have brought her joy. Some days I feel angry (and this is some years on) and think it was selfish, and some days I feel so sorry and sad for her.

The impact that it has had on my family is hard to push aside, however much I know that she was desperately unhappy.

BillSykesDog

I agree that by considering others it could perpetuate the cycle of worthlessness that someone in this situation feels. But the question was (effectively) do others get hurt/affected by those committing suicide and the answer has to be yes.