To think it's actually a lie when argue that suicide is always a selfish act, that others get hurt by it?

[ChristmasFuckOff]

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

I'm sick of all the stuff out there saying how if somebody commits suicide, there will be people devastated. That it's always selfish. Often people who are suicidal say they don't want to be a burden, is that not actually a reasonable argument?

I think a lot of people out there, with friends and family, can't seem to understand there are others out there who literally don't have good relationships. So it doesn't affect anyone else.

Haveyour I know what your trying to ask. I think with depression it can be classed as not wanting to live but not actively considering suicide or having intent to hurt yourself.

There is a proper term for it but I can't remember what it is.

"When people say "get help" what they mean is "I feel uncomfortable with you talking about killing yourself, so I'm going to shut down the conversation"

Exactly! They mean "get help somewhere else so I don't have to engage".

Maybe not always. But often, I agree.

Reminds me of "I hope you get the help you need" in the context of special needs.

Haveyour I know what your trying to ask. I think with depression it can be classed as not wanting to live but not actively considering suicide or having intent to hurt yourself."

Yes, thanks!
I would be glad to know the term as this is how I felt when ill post-natally

These thoughts are quite troubling, especially as they're usually accompanied by a mental illness such as depression or bipolar disorder. Suicidal ideation is broken down into two forms: active and passive. Active suicidal ideation involves an existing wish to die accompanied by a plan for how to carry out the death.

That's how google explains it if that's any good.

There is a proper term for it but I can't remember what it is.

It is suicidal ideation without intent.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

So what I'd like to add is that I think "passive ideation" (as we've called it) is normal but we've lost the ability to think/talk about it. I realise I am very ignorant and that there are good reasons why we are not allowed to talk about this stuff (or good intentions). But the posts on this thread suggest that making these thoughts taboo doesn't necessarily achieve anything...

Ah sorry, suicidal ideation without intent......

Ta Fruit I knew there was a proper term.

Though presumably that is a term from psychiatry? Which is perhaps part of the problem. I say it is normal so I suppose I ought not to use the language of deficit.

I wonder whether if we had euthanasia we would perhaps have fewer violent suicides as described here?

I wonder whether if we had euthanasia we would perhaps have fewer violent suicides as described here?

Yes, there would be fewer. The people I talk to are always searching for a way of obtaining the substance that dignitas administer. They go to great lengths to try and get it, but it's virtually impossible and the internet is full of scammers. They resort to violence because there are few ways you can do it and be certain of the outcome.

Thanks.

So to have any chance of raising the standard of debate, we need to be clear that society's laws operate to make suicide violent. Dying by one's own hand is not intrinsically violent.

Yes, they don't seem to seek violence. The other method they aim for is also non violent, but isn't as reliable. They always seem to seek both certainty and for it to be peaceful and not painful.

Society does force people to do it by very unpleasant means. Perhaps if it was easier and non painful more people would be inclined to do it though. People who may have been able to continue with their lives. Does it need to be violent and unpleasant to deter people from doing it?

Good questions!

So we as a society have chosen to make suicide difficult. As a deterrent.

Gosh lots to think about there. But it seems important.

I find it staggering, how many posters here know someone who has committed suicide (or have attempted it themselves). I am in my late 40s and have never known anyone who has killed themselves (or attempted it).

Christmas, your posts on p12 are a breath of fresh air: yes, God did not promise an easy life here - that is in the life to come. Also: I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church (Col 1:24).

To the poster who says they're Catholic and thought hell could not be worse than their life: if you are a Catholic, then you know that hell is being parted from God forever. That can never happen here in this life.

Sigh

helpimitchy I think that's an incredibly interesting point to raise.

I've been suicidal many times, with a couple of serious attempts in the past. A lot of the time, the main thing that's stopped me trying again is the fear of failure. I remember thinking "what if I fail, and end up so permanently disabled that I'm unable to try again?" I felt so utterly useless, and like I'd failed at everything else in life, was I really going to succeed at suicide? And as somebody else has said, often the thought of suicide being a possibility was actually a comfort - the knowledge that I did have a way out.

When I made my attempts, I'd gone past that point though. The combination of my distorted thinking and what the voices were telling me meant that I had to try it - who knew, I might succeed and finally actually achieve something. Even, I owed it to others to try. Maybe they'd see that I cared enough about them to try.

Tbh, the peace and pain never bothered me. I lived with enough of that every day. It was just the prospect of failure.

Also, re: the person finding the body. I agree with the POV that somebody who completes suicide hasn't really "killed themselves", rather, their mental illness has proven fatal. People die of illnesses. If you find the body of somebody who's died of a heart attack, that's still going to be traumatic. And these days we are so much more removed from death than we ever have been in the past.

I am in my late 40s and have never known anyone who has killed themselves (or attempted it).

You mean nobody has told you. Most people I know are not aware of my car crash suicide attempt because I don't broadcast it. And now you know me, so there's one.

Actually, Pete, you're right. It sounds like a few of us on the thread have been there.

Indeed, very few people know of my suicide attempts. Why would I tell them? Especially when people are so judgmental about it.

Also, I frankly have no patience for pious shite about god not promising an easy life. Nobody is after an easy life.

Depression is not about someone whingeing that their life isn't good enough, it is a medical condition.

IonaNE I'm the catholic poster. Come back and preach at me when one of your children die.

You don't get to tell me what I should believe.

Oh no, next they'll be trotting out how god never gives us more than we can handle and that we only have to turn to him and our lives will be filled with meaning

I think that its better to help people have as pain-free existence in this lifetime as possible, rather than the promise of peace in Valhalla, Heaven, Elysium, the Happy Hunting Grounds, or any other such human construct.

You know who is selfish? Those who would want a person to carry on living when they do not want to, just to spare their own pain.

Get a grip. Suicide is shite. But so is living when you don't want to. And no, not everyone who is suicidal needs help or support. Some people just make a rational decision that they want 'out'.

Making out like they're all a cry for help is so ignorant you're undermining the decisions of many individuals who simply decided this place was not for them.

Oh just ignore them

I think this has been a very good thread so far