To think it's actually a lie when argue that suicide is always a selfish act, that others get hurt by it?

[ChristmasFuckOff]

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

I'm sick of all the stuff out there saying how if somebody commits suicide, there will be people devastated. That it's always selfish. Often people who are suicidal say they don't want to be a burden, is that not actually a reasonable argument?

I think a lot of people out there, with friends and family, can't seem to understand there are others out there who literally don't have good relationships. So it doesn't affect anyone else.

I attempted suicide last year.

My son had died and the pain was that great I just didn't want to be alive anymore. I did have previous MH issues which were just made worse by the loss.

I was found and spent 5 days in a coma. If I hadn't been sectioned afterwards I had every intention of hanging myself by the grave.

I believe I was selfish I have two living DD's, parents and siblings. My oldest daughter had to have 6 months counselling afterwards to come to terms with everything.

I think I was selfish but I don't think that of other people. The pain I was in at the time even though I've somewhat recovered was unbearable.

I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone. I got better with medication if I hadn't I wouldn't be writing this now.

I feel sorry for the family and friends left behind of course but I feel more sorry for the person who felt that suicide was their only option.

I think that, even if we can see the reasons at an individual level, the general message of "suicide is a selfish act" has value. It has repeatedly been shown that suicide is essentially contagious and there are even press guidelines to avoid romanticising it (which leads to a cluster). I would not be describing a suicide as a great sacrifice or a pain incomprehensibly great to someone I loved who might be at risk, just think through the thought processes.

I'm sure there was a freakonomics podcast on suicide which credited Courtney Love's anger at how stupid and selfish Kurt Cobain had been on his being the only celebrity suicide not to inspire a wave of copycats.

The argument posted above saying that "when you're suicidal you simply do not think of anyone else," then saying that isn't selfish is contradictory - that is pretty much the definition of selfish. It may be reasonable to consider this selfishness a symptom of a mental illness, but it can't just be brushed away.

The downside to considering it selfish are tiny, the person being accused is gone already and the people left behind are being alleviated of some of their guilt. However, I think we should have more sympathy for people unable to see past themselves and not write it off as a character flaw but instead see them as trapped and in need of kindness.

The level of desperation which drives people to suicide effectively removes their responsibility for their actions, IMO. Having said that, I hold fully culpable those who take the lives of their family alongside them so maybe that's not always the case.

Regardless, no matter how unconnected the person feels and indeed is, it leaves chaos behind. People who have the most tenuous connection wrack their brains to see how they could have helped, why they didn't notice. People who find the remains and have to deal with the aftermath. It is a trauma in a community as well. I know of five suicides in my village of about 1000 houses, in 15 years. I knew none of them personally. I regret each one and hate that the world was not enough for them.

I have phases, long phases, where I run out of energy for living. I'm not suicidal but would happily not wake up. But I try and find ways of contributing, of making things around me a bit better.

My father committed suicide 17.5 years ago and I live with that every day.

I blame myself for not realising how low he was and for not being there. A psychotherapist told me if I'd seen him 5 minutes before I would have been unaware of his intentions and would have made no difference. That hasn't offered me comfort.

My father chose to take his life when I was 23. I miss him, I love him and would give anything to have an hour with him. My heart broke when he died, it was a physical pain that I have never fully recovered from.

In some respects yes he was selfish but in others...he wasn't well enough to realise.

Being told my Dad had been found was THE worst moment of my life. DS was 3 and can still remember my howling response.

Living with the aftermath of suicide is a life sentence. I won't ever be released from the pain or guilt of it.

PeteSwotatoes

It's because if they told you they were going to commit suicide, they'd potentially be sectioned and stopped

Yes that's partly my point.

Euthanasia is legal where I live for someone in unbearable, incurable physical pain... why do we say that euthanasia is unacceptable for someone in unbearable, incurable emotional pain?

We don't section & commit a terminal cancer patient who chooses to end their life on their terms.

It's the enforced secrecy of suicide that is so hard to recover from. Not only the choice to die.

I feel so sad reading this thread (for both the suicidal, and those left behind), but also glad that at least there is a well-rounded discussion taking place, because talking is the first step to finding solutions.

Here is the impasse that is troubling me:

Two lots of pain are being discussed, the pain of the person who kills themself, and the pain of the people left behind.

I don't think either pain can be dismissed, and it is evident that both are profound. But it feels like to me that the only real solution being presented by society at large, and somewhat reflected here is "don't commit suicide".

Well that solves the problem of people being left behind in pain. But how does that help the person who is suffering through staying alive? It might succeed into guilting them into not killing themself, but it doesn't actually help them. Are we really happy for people to remain alive and suffering as long as we don't have to witness it?

It seems to me that if we as a society could focus far more intensively on the mental pain that some people suffer, and effective ways for relieving that, then we could spare everyone's pain.

Patricia great post. You have very eloquently expressed the conundrum as I see it.

"I have a partner but it can't go anywhere."

Your partner was counting on you to be homeless with. You'll be abandoning him. So yes, in your case, I would consider your suicide as you being selfish. That said, it is your right to be selfish.

Yy Dutch & Patricia. You said it much more clearly than I could.

I haven't read the thread, as I don't have enough time before work, but I wanted to give my perspective. I have lost a close relation to suicide and I did think she was selfish at first, but I was 16 and in emotional turmoil. I then moved on to being angry, then just heart broken that she felt that she could / should do that.
Last week I found a stranger that had taken a deliberate overdose. It has brought lots of old emotions to the surface and I have worried about that person non-stop too. I am relieved we found her, but worried that she may not have made it too, there is nobody to let us know. Finding someone still alive and trying to help them is very traumatic, finding someone who has succeded? I dread to think how I would feel. Not only does it impact on those who know you, but others too.
People don't realise how many people their life affects, like ripples on a lake. More people care than you realise. Suicide as a calculated act would be selfish, suicide in complete desperation (more common) is a tragedy for the deceased and the living.

I love some of the conversations on this thread especially the idea that suicide is dying of mental illness .
I wish that the people left devastated could understand that better actually - as I actually think it would help their healing ?

The simple dictionary definition of selfish may be thinking about yourself, not others. But it's normally used for someone who actively, deliberately wants to hog good things for themselves, without caring about others.

The suicidal person isn't likely to be feeling positive about themselves, self-caring, or thinking they deserve more than someone else.

my mum committed suicide when I was 17. I was also the one to find her body. I do think it will affect people, you may just not see it. You said you have a partner, I am sure your partner would be affected. My mother's suicide has had very big implications - mostly because I was the one who found her. 10 years later I am still not OK about it so please think about that.

The burning building analogy explains why people commit suicide, but it says nothing about why some suicidal people do not.

For me it was that I couldn't guarantee death.

If I took pills I couldn't be sure they would work before I was found, I had no access to a gun, wasn't sure about dropping something electrical in the bath.

Had the internet existed I might not be here because I could look it up. Or maybe I would have been here because I may well have found support.

Like Harry, Fara and others, my views are strongly influenced by having experienced the loss of a parent to suicide.

I was a teenager when my father committed suicide, leaving my mother with 3 children to care for on her own (I'm the eldest, my youngest DB was only 7). I still don't really know why he did it. I also don't think that mental illness is always the reason (although of course it often is, I guess long-term depression etc). I do know that, as pp have said, that the effects of suicide are long-lasting and profound. I suppose I do see it as a bit of a cop-out, but then I would think that.

This is a really important and honest thread and I'm glad it hasn't been pulled. Like chicken upthread, I would have gone years ago if I could just say 'Thanks very much, but I've had enough now and would like to go home,' go to bed and not wake up in the morning.

I've tried to get help - I had a crisis psych team tell me that if I didn't want SSRIs there was nothing they could do to help me. I've had years of talking therapy. I tried an online community psych team and they were crap - the quality of their advice was like a Jackie agony aunt.

For me, suicide would be a logical response to my life. I live alone, I have no partner, no children and no relationship with my family. I have a good job. Some weekends are a struggle to get from one breath to the next. The only conversation I will have on a bad weekend is with the checkout person at the local shop.

What are the answers to loneliness and isolation? Get out, make friends, find a partner. But if I had the skills to get out and make friends I would have done so.

I don't actively kill myself because I don't want to go to hell. But don't tell me to smell the fucking flowers and find my joy. It really isn't that easy when the problems with your life are structural and you've carried them from childhood.

Unborn
So sorry for
Your losss

This thread has been incredibly difficult to read. I have had to scroll past some posts because they are too personal, however I am grateful for people sharing their experiences.

My ex partner is suicical. He took 2 attempts on his life in summer. He used insulin and alcohol (diabetic) and each time has denied suicide and so will not be given help or support - claims he just drank too much and took too much. He argues that there is nothing wrong with him, its everyone else, everyone is out to get him. He blames everything on his diabetes.

His step dad goes round every single day to make sure he is alive.

Each time his step dad calls me to say he's taken a turn for the worse and don't let the children go round I get angry.
Logically I know it is a mental illness, emotionally though I am angry. I am angry he wont seek help, I am angry he doesn't see our children as important enough to get help and I am angry at the impact he has on his parents.
I do believe it is only a matter of time before he succeeds, and I dread the day I have to tell my children.
I can only hope that suicide is more openly recognised as a mental illness so I can in some way explain this even though I can never understand it. Perhaps if I saw him seeking help I could in someway say to myself that I get it, he tried.
We split up almost 11 years ago. I do not want him to die

I agree that it isn't selfish in the way that most people use the word but I also agree about the devastation suicide leaves behind. It actually surprises me how few people take their own lives. In my job, I see so many people whose lives are unrelentingly shit, I don't know how they keep going.
There is research looking at genetics and suicide - suicide is known to run in families. For some people, suicide just never seems to cross their mind, no matter how awful and hopeless they feel. Religion can be a very strong protective factor IME - because it is seen as a sin or the person fears going to hell.
It's really interesting (if a bit morbid) looking at suicide rates in different countries. It is a huge problem in Guyana with 44 suicides per 100,000 people per year compared with 12.1 in USA and 6.2 in the UK. The WHO say that the statistics are inaccurate in some countries due to stigma and that suicides are under reported.

I saw someone throw themselves under a tube train once. It was an overland stop, one short of the underground. His friend had tried to stop him and was pulled from the tracks just in time. Those closest to the scene were covered in blood. It was the most violent act I've ever witnessed.

I really felt so sorry for that person to do that, but the effects on us as bystanders to this horror and those in the train and the driver, plus the medics and police was awful. I was in shock for days after. It's something I will never forget.

I agree that YANBU to discuss this though. I take on board what you have to say. However, suicide does have repercussions.

As someone who has desperately tried to resuscitate a person after they have hanged themselves, I would say yes, someone, somewhere, will always be affected. My heart sinks every time I have to get "big fish" out. And this is in a professional context. When my childhood friend took his own life I cried for days. My friend is truly missed by hundreds of people, and he will never know how much he is loved.

However I understand that at the point of people choosing to end their life, they feel they are worthless, that no-one would care, that they are a burden, that no-one would miss them. This simply is not true of course, but to truly understand you must realise the place that people are in when they complete suicide. I never see suicide as selfish, regardless of the images I see sometimes when I go to bed at night x

I remember Libby Purves talking about her son who took his own life after battling with depression for years. She said 'He stayed as long as he could'.

Fruit

Sometimes it is true.

I have never met anyone that would not be missed by someone. Whether that be a neighbour, someone working in the local shop, a friend who hasn't been in contact for decades... there is always someone that cares. We are not insular beings who live life without any other human contact.

Fruit, a woman I know took her life three and a half months ago. She was young (28) and it was very, very sad and I feel sorry that she died so young and so sadly.

But I miss her in a fleeting, passing way.

It certainly isn't (and shouldn't!) be enough to keep her alive if she didn't want to be. As for the idea of not committing suicide because someone in the local shop might miss me popping in for milk and eggs - come on, now