To think it's actually a lie when argue that suicide is always a selfish act, that others get hurt by it?

[ChristmasFuckOff]

Firstly, MNHQ as you always comment on these threads - this isn't somebody making a post about being suicidal. I'm not. Dunno why not because I probably should be and maybe I will be later this week but right now...no.

I'm sick of all the stuff out there saying how if somebody commits suicide, there will be people devastated. That it's always selfish. Often people who are suicidal say they don't want to be a burden, is that not actually a reasonable argument?

I think a lot of people out there, with friends and family, can't seem to understand there are others out there who literally don't have good relationships. So it doesn't affect anyone else.

I attempted suicide as a teen. A few times. Not at all selfish as I knew would not be missed. My friend committed suicide and was the happiest she had ever been that day. She was so ill. DH has first hand experience of suicide too. It never leaves you. I don't think the person who commits suicide is selfish. Their pain is too great. It's always so sad though for everyone.

As for impact in this world. How do we change the world? One act of random kindness at a time.

Wish there was more openess about suicide and mental health. It should be as easy as 'my foot hurts doctor' to say 'my heart hurts' - physical pain and mental pain should be treated the same without stigma.

I don't think the person who commits suicide is selfish. Their pain is too great.

Sorry can I just say my friend absolutely hates this type of thinking.

Her dad committed suicide when she was ten. She heard a lot about how his pain must have been so great.

She got drunk one night and broke down. She said it's like people were saying her pain wasn't as bad, because surely if it was then she'd be killing herself too.

People take their own lives as a last resort, because they believe that there is no alternative or because they believe that the world will be better off without them.

In the haze of these thoughts what they cannot see that in ending their own life they are potentially causing a lifetime of pain and misery for others. Their pain doesn't end at all it is just passed on. This is why it is seen as selfish because those affected by suicide are just landed with pain, sadness and guilt due to the actions of another person, often someone who loves them. I have witnessed the detestation caused by this within my family and I can see exactly why it is called a selfish act.

*devestation

I've posted my thoughts earlier on in the thread so won't repeat here but I just wanted to hop back into the thread to say thank you Christmas for starting such a thought provoking and insightful post.

I can judge. We were asked for our opinions. That's the point. The OP stated that they weren't suicidal but wanted an in principle view on whether or not it is selfish. In my view it is. People have the right to be selfish if they want to be. Doesn't mean that other people have to understand though.
I am not suicidal and never have been. I do have experience of people who have and have tried to commit suicide and I have seen the hurt and anger that their families feel. It destroys families.

as I have grown older, I do think that the way we call suicide "selfish" is very callous. It can be, but in general the deep level of anguish and distress means they see no other option

maybe for some people death is preferable to a life of anguish and pain, I think that's OK actually.

The burning building analogy explains why people commit suicide, but it says nothing about why some suicidal people do not. Is it because, despite the pain, they refuse to accept death as the only alternative? Is it because they understand that the flames may recede? Is it because they have a higher pain threshold? Is it because they're afraid of the fall? Or is it because they can see the people on the ground below them who would be injured, possibly seriously, possibly even fatally, if they jumped?

If the latter, then what about those who can't see the people below because of the smoke? If we had it in our power to lock the windows to prevent them jumping, should not we do it?

I believe there is something more important than ending my suffering, and more important even than my life. That thing is, for want of a better term, my human soul. It's the part of me that makes me more than just an animal, it's made up of my human values and sense of right and wrong, and my desire to leave the world a better place than when I entered it. It's the part of me that lives on after I die, not in heaven, but in the things I have given to others and given to the world. If I was allowed to commit suicide, then that part of myself would die with me. I may not realise it, but that's what would happen - I would become the worst possible person according to my own values, and my legacy would be lost.

We will all die one day. What matters most is to be able to say that we tried to live the best lives we could. Sometimes we rely on others to help us do that and sometimes that means stopping us, by force if necessary, from harming others. If there's one person who has a right to deny me my suicide, then that person is me. If I ever become suicidal again, I am absolutely relying upon society to stop me from doing it - no matter what I say I want.

YourOtherLeft - At what point does society stopping someone from killing themselves become a violation of their right to decide whether or not they want to live though?.

Back in the 90s I worked on Psychiatric intensive care units. Some people were on 1:1 observations for years, I genuinely mean YEARS (I'm not sure if it would happen now) due to their suicide risk. All medications were tried, they were having intensive therapy, occupational therapy etc. It wasn't making them not want to be dead. Every time you tried to reduce their 1:1 there'd be an attempt to kill themselves so you were stuck in a regime which gave no personal dignity at all.

And they were physically prevented from killing themselves so they'd sometimes stop eating to try and starve themselves. So you NG fed - painful, degrading, awful for everyone involved.

We would strip anything away that could be used to harm themselves so they were essentially in utalitarian rooms in clothes they didn't want to wear that didn't represent who they were as a person.

I look back now and think that although the system thought it was the best thing - that we were saving them from themselves, this went on for years sometimes and at the time I felt terribly uncomfortable with it and looking back I think we were cruel and inhumane.

It was no life for that person and extremely distressing for people working with them when they were begging to be allowed to die and you were literally forcing them (often with physical intervention) to stay alive despite knowing what complete torment they were in.

I've known people successfully kill themselves when on constant observations (there are ways) and I felt relief for them.

I've known people refuse physical health treatment for serious medical conditions knowing it can't be enforced under the MHA unless under very specific circumstances.

I know these are extreme examples but it's left me with the understanding that you try everything, EVERYTHING to help but for some people it won't. And if that person wants to die, that should be respected although it will be distressing for those that loved them.

YANBU.

I really hate this "suicide is selfish" thing. Well so fucking what if it is? If someone is at the stage of trying to kill themselves, so what if they're being selfish? Are you seriously suggesting that they should stick around so they don't harm a hypothetical person if they really feel like there is no other option?

I'll never understand this at all. I have had friends commit suicide and whilst it was awful and effected me, so what? It was their choice to make and I think it's disgusting to call that person selfish.

Indrid - I agree that someone could potentially make a difference if they were able to communicate properly with a suicidal person in the way you describe. But how many people would take the time to do that (or would be capable of it) for someone whom they considered an acquaintance. I suppose I'm thinking more of the, 'Oh, if only they'd known how highly I thought of them, maybe it would have made a difference...' sort of attitude.

I see what you mean. Asist training was being rolled out to a number of professions that would cover a chunk of the polulation- police, hcp, education, care staff, sw, councilors etc. The funding has ofcourse been cut.... but choosing to become informed about how to talk about suidcide isn't impossible if people look. It is on WHO list of serious risk to life (or something like that) along with cancer etc so shouldn't be as hidden and as shameful as it is seen, and it doesn't have to be if people choose to be better informed & change their attitudes.

My friend mum hung herself. Did it one afternoon. My friend and her pinger sister got home after school to see their mum swinging dead over the stairs.

You can't possible tell me that that wasn't a horrifically cruel thing to do to two children :-(

Selfishness goes both ways. Like someone said, suicides are treated callously, and I think it's because "giving up" is seen as weak.

Surely it's just a different shade of selfish to make someone's desperate suicide all about you - which is the argument made by the "how could he have left me?" side?

Surely it's selfish to be angry at someone who felt so shit that they saw no way out but death?

YANBU - my DD was suicidal at one point and isn't selfish, has never been. It is a desperate situation for the suicidal person, not selfish. One of her friends did commit suicide at 14, and it was very difficult to cope with but I didn't view it as selfish - they were struggling so much and felt as if they needed to go. DD misses them every day.

OP

I just wanted to say that this has to be one of the best threads I've ever read on MN (and I've lurked on and off for quite a long time.) I don't think I've ever come across such an honest and open discussion of the issues and thought processes around suicide.

I'm too nervous to talk about my personal experiences, but suffice it to say that there's a phrase, "the thought of suicide is of great comfort to the depressed", that has kept me company through numberless dark days and nights.

What I do know is suicide is death through mental illness.

Yes, this exactly. It is tragic, not "selfish".

darumafan your post comparing the death of your mother after battling cancer and the death of your son after battling schizophrenia is a beautiful one.

The difference is knowing beforehand.

I live in a country where euthanasia is legal and once watched the clock at 7pm on a Thursday afternoon - the time that a friend of the family had chosen to end her fight with cancer.

Last Monday at 6pm I wasn't watching the clock and that is when a young man in our community chose to step in front of a train.

The opportunity to let everyone say goodbye isn't a burden I would put on a suicidal person's shoulders.... but it is the only real difference in our conversations about an early death.

Cancer = we can prepare ourselves and hopefully get to a point where we can provide good support to the person who is ready to die.

Suicide = we never have the chance to knowingly be some small part of that person's final days and (selfishly) feel forever robbed.

It's because if they told you they were going to commit suicide, they'd potentially be sectioned and stopped. It's not that the person wants to "rob" you of anything. The practicalities must surely be obvious?

My best friend took her own life last year, the devastation for everyone left behind has been immense. I dont think what she did was selfish because I dont/cannot believe she had an inkling of what she was leaving behind her.

She left three children behind, one of whom was under the age five. She has a moment of madness when it felt like she couldnt go on but if she had, she would have continued to have sad times but also many happy joyful times like most people do.

Anyone reading this, having dark thoughts, please speak to someone, wait amd see how you feel tomorrow, Tomorrow is a new day

Not selfish, very sad. However, I think it would be very rare for suicide to have no affect on anyone else, and I suspect that the feeling that 'nobody will care or miss me', or 'people will be better off without me' is almost always the mental illness talking, rather than actual truth.

I think everything we do has a knock on effect and so taking your own life is always going to affect someone. It might be the emergency services or medical teams, it might be whoever finds your body , the pharmicist who prescribed the pills etc etc

It upsets me when people call it selfish, because it shows a lack of understanding about suicide itself and what it takes to push passed the body's built in survival instinct. You do not ever do that lightly.

YelloDraw

No, it really wasn't. Not a nice thing to see, sure, but when you're suicidal you simply do not think of anyone else. You are in such a low position that the only way you think you'll be better is by killing yourself.

Sorry that you can't see that but to describe suicide as selfish is a fucking disgrace.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem

A friend of my mother committed suicide many years ago now. She'd lost her husband to a heart attack, then a couple of years later her pregnant daughter fainted and drowned in the bath. She was her only child.

My mum's friend made it through a few more years after that, then put her affairs in order and ended her life. She arranged it so my mum would call the police and break in to find her a couple of days later, which is exactly what happened.

I cannot find it in me to call her selfish, neither can my mum. She'd lost so much and was in so much (mental) pain. Maybe one day she would have felt better but I can quite see why she preferred to end things when she did.

RIP X

I feel suicidal on a regular basis and I once told dh in a moment of real pain and desperation. He told me that it would be a selfish thing to do and that I had others to think of.

Righto, fair enough, but he didn't offer any solutions to my difficulties or make any suggestions. I was just given an instruction and that was it. End of conversation. I felt very lonely.

I still feel suicidal sometimes, but I won't ever mention it to him again.