Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

[MagicMary1]

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

I know

Exactly Muslims funding terrorists Muslims

Killing other Muslims men women and children

Is that Saudi's fight against the west who they will happily continue to sell oil to no it's to spread an ultra conservative Islam where a select few hold power through fear

" I did not make a sweeping statement but spoke of first-hand experience and observation, which you cannot do. "

You did, and of course I can speak of first hand experience of Islamic communities and my observation of them,, being from an Indian community doesn't give you the monopoly.

"In fact, the Hindu is the most inclusive demographic. So, please, stop pretending you know something that you do not."

Haha, so its fine for you to say something but not me? I think your double standards and lack of genuine argument have been exposed. I have dealt with Hindu communities, in Southall and Harrow, that are not all that well intergrated and are in fact very insular. I can give you lots of examples actually. I didn't say that they ALL were, I also know some very well integrated Hindu families as I do Islamic ones etc etc.

You made sweeping generalizations based on prejudices gained from your own insular little world. Your attempts to justify your sweeping statement about muslims not living well next to other communities was utter rubbish.

Keep coming back, but you are wrong, and the ineffectual attempts to shout me down ( oh the irony to be able to use this to you after your behaviour in the Trump threads) are poor and show the paucity of your argument.

Darth - I do not shout anyone down, I am not a shouter. I post my own observations and hopes. My behaviour on the Trump thread. What on earth does that mean?

My own insular world you say? Hardly. I think it is you who are stuck in some SJW parallel world. My husband's job has taken us all over the world in the 20+ yrs of marriage, the last destination was Jakarta.

I do not have an argument, paucity or not. I was merely stating my own firsthand observation of the difficulties that some muslims in Europe experience. There is indeed a cultural shock, because Western behaviours in public are different, they do genuinely distress some from MENA and therefore are difficult to tolerate. Perhaps you do not appreciate that.

No you didn't say SOME you made a sweeping generalisation.

Further, the point about your own insular world was because you said you had formed these opinions being from Southall, which actually if you are going to use this to make statements about all muslims shows your own insularity.

Your attempt to shout me down was when you said I was an outsider so I couldn't possibly know etc. I notice how you are changing your statements after the fact and seemingly changing your stance.

Yes some muslim people may have difficulties when they move here, many do not. Some Hindu people have problems when they move here, in fact the communities that I have experience with have some families that are fully integrated and others that are very insular and only socialise whith others from their community, and are trying to enforce behaviours and rules on children that are very old fashioned but would be how things were done in India 20-30 years ago.

I'll give you an example, lovely young woman of my aquintance has a British boyfriend, but couldn't possibly tell her parents because they would be shocked if she came home with a "gora" and they expect her to marry a nice Indian boy from within their community, there are all sorts of rules that she and her siblings have to follow, traditions and pressures which are totally out of keeping with the way Western children are raised. Her parents socialise almost completely within their own community, the grandparents who moved here in the 50s do speak English, but not well etc etc. This is true of many Hindu families within their community, which is not that far from the one you were raised in.

But see I didn't make a sweeping statement did I, you did, its a massive flaw in your argument and you made it based on your own prejudices.

So it doesn't count.

I think what SouthallGirl is saying that the Asian community though is not one have differing views/social traditions/religion a Europeans views come from a different place

I am half Asian I find it difficult to navigate at times because i
come from mainly a westerners view point which at times is so different even when I think I am liberal and open minded it's still from a different place

No what she said was:

"Islam is so far behind which is what makes it so difficult for muslim people to live among non-muslims"

Which is a prejudiced sweeping statement, and incorrect.

Apparently they've arrested the cousin now!

Islam as a religion maybe not be progressive

People are

I wouldn't agree with SouthallGirl on that statement but there is certainly a large number of Muslims in this country that are not integrating and from mainly these communities we are seeing young men and women being radicalised

I think its the opposite way round, there are large numbers who are integrated and a small but sizeable minority that are not, this is the community from which people are being radicalized.

But there is something in seeing things not just from a liberal western view point that I think is important to gain better understanding

I used to assume every refugee and immigrant that has come here wants embrace western freedoms why it is surely better that isn't the case and unless we listen to people that do understand better through experience even if views are opposing

Of course more have integrated

But large numbers haven't and we have turned a blind eye becuase for sometime the problems could be sorted out within the community

Um we do have a problem with Integration here in the UK. We appear to have an even bigger problem facing up to this

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/04/social-integration-louise-casey-uk-report-condemns-failings

Darth - Yes some muslim people may have difficulties when they move here, many do not

I was speaking of how genuinely difficult it is for MENA men who come to England or Europe to acclimatise to the freedom that western women have. Some cannot tolerate it, and that is why Cologne (and many other EU cities) happened.

I dont have prejudices, I have observations and however un-PC and undiplomatic what I see cannot be dismissed. My family is cosmopolitan, we are all very well-travelled, have lived in muslim countries and therefore I am in a very good position to speak about what I know.

When I was growing up in London, various thoroughly unpleasant attitudes and beliefs in that particular faith were well known to me, decades before the general public got to know. My older sister's friend was honour killed, for example, after which I worked as a volunteer at Southall Black Sisters where approx 80% of our clients were muslim girls & women.

From the report:

"That while segregation has reduced over the population as a whole, in a number of local areas ethnic or migrant groups have become increasingly divided."

Which agrees with what I have been saying, there are more integrated comunities than before, but there are still issues.

Casey also states that it is a two way thing. So its a problem, but getting better, but not quick enough.

NotJust - I think the Casey report is unusually hard-hitting & accurate - about time too.

Your observations can be dismissed when you make sweeping statements.

Your point about Cologne also ignores the fact that at Oktoberfest there have been sex assualt problems for years, mainly by groups of or individual German men. Again you are keen to only identify one part of the problem.

Some MENA men cannot tolerate it, but then in this country we have had a victim blaming culture for years too because some men couldn't cope with the fact that women wore short skirts or dressed a certain way.

"various thoroughly unpleasant attitudes and beliefs in that particular faith were well known to me, decades before the general public got to know."

You know I can say the same about many religions? Again you are using you own experience to make massive sweeping generalisations about an entire religion and those that follow it. I could do the same regarding my Hindu friend, whose parents are actually very mysoginistic, could be considered to be emotionally abusive, and casually violent to her and her siblings amongst other things. All totally normal in the community she lives in. But that is only SOME Hindu families I know.

I think you are missing the issue with what happened in Germany last year

Many of the men that attacked women see non Muslim white western women as beneath them so fair game if they were attacked

It's not women that are beneath them it's western non Muslim women that are

No there are problems with attitudes towards Muslim women as well, its all there in the Casey report, but from a minority not the majority.

Your point about Cologne also ignores the fact that at Oktoberfest there have been sex assualt problems for years

Rape and molestation has always existed. Cologne was different. It was an organised mass attack by hundreds on women to molest and rape them. It was organised by mostly newcomers from MENA to occur on that particular day across several EU countries. Their version of taharrush. Finland got wind of it and managed to cut them off at the pass.

Oktoberfest has had instances of sexual molestation and thieving by drunken German men.

You are deliberately not acknowledging that Cologne was a deliberate typeof attack on European women. It took about 2 days for the news to be published here, and the Guardian took nearly two weeks to even mention it.

Just think how terrifying for the woman to be chased down by a large group of men.

It's not women that are beneath them it's western non Muslim women that are

Exactly, Enthusiam.

But there wouldn't be an organised mass attack on women by Muslim men against Muslim women at a celebration

"the Guardian took nearly two weeks to even mention it."

This is an urban myth, the Guardian reported it the same day as the Mail et al. The national broadcaster in Germany and the police didn't report anything about it till the 5th.

Here is the Guardian report on it, on the 5th: www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks

Cologne was different I agree, but what you are also missing out on is that in large events like NYE in Germany there have been a history of sexual assualts, so there are also similiarities.

Not acknowledging that is an attempt to make this exceptional and blame only one type of person for this behaviour.

I think that if you look at the Casey report you'll find lots of references to misogyny, DV and sexual assault, in SOME communities, and even the Casey report says that the UK is more integrated than ever but there are still some cases.

You are tying to be exceptional and make this all about one type of person following one religion. It isn't the case.

Agree with southalls post at 2.10

2.05!!!!!

For goodness sake!!!

Yet she was incorrect about the Guardian.....