Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

[MagicMary1]

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

What could we have done

Sadam and Gaddafi had huge support within their own countries while both being despised by many others on the MENA

The leaders both political and religious in many countries have supported corruption and kept their own people poor it makes them easier to manage or it did

Some really good points on this page. Depressing but really good.

There's a reason why Isis prefers its "soldiers" to know precious little about Islam! It likes them angry and isolated and ideally with a European passport.

Of course they know about Islam they are Muslim many have grown up in Muslim countries

Darth I am an Indian woman, and for the first 23 yrs of my life lived in Southall - an almost entirely Asian community composed of Sikh, Hindu and Muslim, and second only to Wembley in this part of the world.

I know what I am talking about. There is no prejudice, only yours, because I am speaking from my own experience and observation.

I do understand you want to defend your faith, but you have to do it from a position of honesty.

"What could we have done "

Well not arming Saddam would have been a good start, Saddam was working with the CIA well before he was leader of the country.

"I do understand you want to defend your faith, but you have to do it from a position of honesty"

I'm an atheist.

My critique of your post stands, you have made sweeping generalisations based on prejudice, not actual fact. As pointed out only a very small number of the Muslim population are extremists, there are a great many moderate Muslims.

Your defense that you are Asian doesn't stand, you made a prejudicial statement regarding all Muslims, it is certainly ok to critique that.

Oh and BTW, I'm a Londoner too.

and he wouldn't have got weapons from elsewhere

Of course he would have

While I rather we didn't have such involvement with the arms trade we do and we buy oil from government that are cruel and corrupt but would us not doing business with such countries suddenly make them places of peace and tranquility where there is equality for all the people

No

But it wasn't just doing business though was it? It isn't just buying oil, its active support through the security services, through sharing of military expertise, or in Mossadegh's case arranging a coup to take down the democratically elected President in favour of our own Dictator.

If we hadn't been so involved, and were still involved with bombing and killing people in these countries do you think the anger would be coming our way?

I was not talking about extremists, I was talking about how uncomfortable some moderate muslims find aspects of life in England.

Oh right, so you are saying to me my ethnicity, my knowledge of all three major Asian faiths and their attitudes counts for nothing. What a ridiculous ridiculous statement.

Yes I said before our involvement does fuel anger

But what has Germany to do with Tunisia what has a young british man got to do with the fight in Syria why has a young man who has converted to Islam have a religious calling along with three other men who he knows that justifies to them bombing London

The list can go on and on the only connection is Islam

No I'm not saying that at all, nice try,, what I'm saying is that you have used your own ethnicity as a defense against my critique of your earlier post in which you made sweeping generalizations based on your own prejudices. I have knowledge of all 3 major faiths, relationships and friendships with people who follow them.

BTW In all 3 major faiths, there is some oppression of women,

"The list can go on and on the only connection is Islam"

So the connection is not the fact that at the time of the 7/7 bombings the UK was involved in wars in two Islamic countries were civillians were dying every day?

Or that Damascus is claiming that German special forces are present in Syria?

Although I'd imagine that the most recent attack is more just hitting out at the West for the mess that is happening in Syria and the fact that in part we are responsible for it.

I think it is you, Darth with the prejudices. We all have relationships and friendships with all nationalities and faiths, not just you -if I believed it-. I was posting about what I know and have seen, and have been brought up amidst.

You are ridiculous, and an outsider in these matters.

All religions have shitty bits in them. Islam has more violent bits than most, perhaps, but most Muslims know not to take those bits literally. The problem is that they can be used to incite evil deeds by saying, "god tells us to do it." How can you argue with that if you're a believer? Lots of religions have had a go at similar stuff in the past; it's Islam at the moment.

The culture is a different problem and that's what brings us back to integration. You'll never find a country that subjugates half of its population that is a nice place to live!

I have Muslim friends who manage to make their religion and their western lifestyles fit and they are happy here. The ones who aren't are the ones whose parents and grandparents have brought all the structures of their homeland with them - then expect their kids to adhere to it all whilst being able to see the freedoms that British children have. add that to the revolting attitudes of some Brits - eg my half Indian ex will not watch England play football or cricket because he's had so much racist abuse at games - and you've got a massive pressure cooker.

(Not sure one can be racist against Muslims btw - Islam isn't a race. Prejudiced, yes.)

Oh so now I'm an outsider and ridiculous, nice way to "shout down" the argument. You still haven't rebutted the fact that you made sweeping statements based on prejudices, and you can't because you know you made a flawed argument. Your attempt to shut me down by saying I'm an "outsider" is utterly ridiculous, does that mean no one who doesn't have your experience can comment. Bullshit, you lost this argument the minute you said:

"Islam is so far behind which is what makes it so difficult for muslim people to live among non-muslims"

That's utter rubbish as there are many Islamic communities in the UK and round the world which live alongside other commuities, interact with them. There are also communities that don't do so well, but there are also hindu communities that don't interact well with the others that are around them, and I have experience of these too, oh shock horror, guess where in London?

I know what wars we we involved in

but still that does not answer to why some young Muslims (some converted some not) are willing to take such violent actions against innocent people in the name of Islam

It's not as simple as saying it's down to our involvement as Muslims are being killed too and in the case of ISIS is non Sunni Muslims

Christianity actually spread very peacefully and Christians were the persecuted rather than the persecuters. That changed in the Middle Ages but with the crusades and later with the inquisition but it's primary spread was peaceful and it's pretty easy to look at the gospels and the accounts of Jesus and his teachings and see that the message is one of peace. Islam however that's very difficult to argue because Muhammad was a warlord who invaded cities of others, destroyed their sacred religious buildings and icons and forced them to convert on pain of death. When you compare Jesus and Muhammad it's one nice bloke who wandered around preaching love and peace and to be nice to each other and was martyred by oppressive invaders. And the other was a violent warlord who forced people to submit to him through violence. There's no getting away from that because they're at the root of both of them.

I suppose you could argue that if the west and Russia left the Middle East tomorrow it would all be sunshine and rainbows. But I doubt it. That ignores the violence and persecution going on all over Asia and Africa against people of other religions who have nothing to do with the west or Russia.

And if their demands are territorial they're not really making very clear what they are (except for a worldwide caliphate). Which would sort of defeat the object.

Bill, the real spread of Christianity throughout Europe came when Constantine adopted it as the religion of the empire, the was certainly persecution of the non-christians by the Romans.

Constantine also tore down pagan temples and many ordinary Christians vanadalised and attacked pagan places of worship.Other emperors carried on the persecution too.

Enthusiasm, I think it does explain it, what explains it even more is angry young men are very easy to manipulate.

As I said, this is a small number of people in a religion that has an enourmous following. It isn't down to Islam but to a wide number of contributing factors, to say its inherent in Islam is to simply a complex situation.

The Syrian civil war is a knock on effect from the Arab spring

It's not about our involvement there. Have we lead to the rise of Isis we can't claim oir involvement in Iraq has helped their cause but the funding is their weapon and their fight was not against the west it's against a different type of Islam

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38427469?client=safari

Now they've arrested his nephew

I don't say it was inherently Islam but there is a pull to this ideology that comes from Islam

There isn't one reason or one answer the issues in the MENA are complex the wests involvement is just one of them

The rise of ISIS was caused by the Iraq war Enthusiasm, many of the original troops were former Iraqi soldiers who were left when the army was disbanded in 2003.

The Saudi's also fund ISIS, so its not quite as simple as that.

Should have said ISIS fight was not originally against the west

Now it's gained so much power and has followers its against everyone who does not follow their ideology

Darth - Well of course you are an outsider to the Asian communities. I did not make a sweeping statement but spoke of first-hand experience and observation, which you cannot do.

"there are also hindu communities that don't interact well with the others that are around them, and I have experience of these too, oh shock horror, guess where in London?"

No there arent. My parents are still there, 46 yrs later, and get along just fine with my husband's relatives who are not Hindu or Asian. In fact, the Hindu is the most inclusive demographic. So, please, stop pretending you know something that you do not.