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Original poster

Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

774 replies

MagicMary1 · 19/12/2016 19:41

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

OP posts:
Rosa · 23/12/2016 14:52

So it isn't a case, its actually a post hoc fallacy.

So why have they bothered to increase security at airports ?

SouthallGirl · 23/12/2016 14:58

Let's get one thing straight. Terrorists and other criminals LOVE Schengen. Those who are trying to convey that it has not facilitated the free movement of terror are dead wrong. If we reinstated border control it would inconvenient to the rest of us, but fewer bad guys would get thru.

I do not merely close my front door for the evening, I lock it also.

DarthPlagueis · 23/12/2016 15:00

Because its far easier to do. Tighter border controls would not have stopped this terrorist because they would have planned around it. That's why its a post hoc fallacy because you are saying that one causes the other.

The kind of security you are suggesting is the stop everyone at the border, check their ID ( or as you suggest scan their finger), search the car etc etc.

kateandme · 23/12/2016 15:03

the people making the "cock up" not cathing right guy.they are someone borther,sister mum dad husband wife too etc.like we all are on here. do we want to believe they are good.or bad.if we believe in the good then they will be feeling shit they missed this.and will be doing all they can to go catch the bastard.why so quick to blame or hate on them.could this be a terrible set of mistake after a tragedy.
lets hate on the people killing,and help the people and eacother trying to save us.

kateandme · 23/12/2016 15:07

or lets just throw it all up in the air and love dam well everyone! lets us be loveeee doveeee with allllllllll.all squishy and gooey and kind and lovely and forgiving. let the hateful people be so confused by our abilty to love they will look and go "hold me I'm scared" yes? good.world sorted. phew.....erm

scaryteacher · 23/12/2016 15:08

Widow These events should mean that Schengen is looked at long and hard. It is possible to have security and freedom. I feel a damn sight safer in London than I ever do in Brussels, and I felt pretty damn safe in Copenhagen recently as well, given that they have border controls and will continue to do so til next year.

I have been to Leuven Christmas market this week. but will probably not be going into Brussels this year (didn't last year either), as I am not convinced enough about the security here in Belgium to go.

Rosa · 23/12/2016 15:10

I think you are trying to wind me up ... not working sorry !

I am saying make it as inconvenient for them as possible ... I don't give a monkeys how inconvenient it is for me or others travelling ( and I travel alot) .

I am not saying that this incident was caused by open borders either. However if the border controls were in place then the German police would not be issuing statements saying he is still in Germany when in fact he was wandering round an Italian rail station ....

Whatever is being done is not enough . We will never eliminate terrosim it has existed in one form or another for years . But I am saying that more needs to be done.

scaryteacher · 23/12/2016 15:15

Kate the people making the "cock up" not cathing right guy. are professionals who are paid to ensure that the 'right' guy is caught. It matters not that they are parents etc, it is their job to ensure the safety of the public, and from what is appearing in the papers, it appears they did 'cock up', by not stopping this man when they had the chance.

I understand that there is a hang over in Germany from both the Nazi regime and the Stasi, about the state knowing too much, but to have no CCTV is negligent, and it seems like there is back tracking going on,. just as there was with Cologne.

The police and security services need to be lucky all the time; the terrorists need to be lucky once. I would suggest therefore that the Germans have to barter some freedom for security to give the security services a fighting chance to avoid deadly cock ups like this one.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 23/12/2016 15:41

darth the experts say FOM has been massive security risk - putting at risk people across the EU I am more likely to believe them than you.

People want to be safe ultimately - they want to go about their daily business in safety.

DarthPlagueis · 23/12/2016 15:57

Which experts? People in the Schengen area go about their business in safety every day and are doing so without fear right now.

All you do when you make these changes is do what the terrorists want you to do, or using it as an excuse to implement more right wing policies (hmm using fear to implement authoritarianism that sounds familiar).

BTW fear is not always rational The chances of being killed in a terrorist attack are about 1 in 20 million. A person is as likely to be killed by his or her own furniture or be the victim of a shark attack ( bet that doesn't stop you going in the sea).

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 23/12/2016 16:09

How on earth is it - a right wing policy to keep people safe? I guess it will become one - is becoming one though isn't it.
When you place higher ideals above the safety of the people who elected you to protect them...they will get angry - there will be a point when they say "no more".

By the way - its well known its talked about every single day that displaced ISIS fanatics are using migrant routes to access the EU. We know there are weak measures in place to check people, we know they can move across the whole of the EU with ease and do. Experts - in security and counter terrorism say that's a bad idea.
Generally its a good idea to know who is in your country.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 23/12/2016 16:12

BTW there is someone on this thread who has said - she has put thought into which markets she wil go too because of her fears - there is another lady who said she was worried when her dc wanted to go to another market.

So two people small sample are not going about their daily business without fear and if you think every single german is going to markets without worry your wrong there too.

DarthPlagueis · 23/12/2016 16:16

"How on earth is it - a right wing policy to keep people safe?"

It isn't but of course the whole "control of our borders" thing is a very right wing policy and events like this are opportunistically used to promote these views.

I didn't say people weren't worried, but I did say that fear is not always justified. The fear is just what the terrorists want, they want closed borders, they want us to be scared.

BTW this particular terrorist arrived in Italy in 2012, so no, he is not part of the ISIS hiding terroists in migrant routes that people were warning about at the height of the refugee crisis last year.

TulipsInAJug · 23/12/2016 16:32

Where are all the moderate Islamic leaders speaking out and saying 'not in our name'?

I scour the media every day and don't see or hear from them.

(I do, however, occasionally hear liberal, westerners tell me it's a religion of peace. Hmm)

SouthallGirl · 23/12/2016 16:33

I would not allow any of my children to go to a similar market following this atrocity, and nor would any reasonable parent.

Those who still believe that Schengen is a good idea in light of increased radicalisation and massacres usually have an ulterior motive imo. To give unfettered movement to terrorists and other criminals is suicide; why on earth would you make it easy for them? Of course, even if Schengen was removed a few terrorists would still get in - but there would be fewer and they would have to work harder.

"Generally its a good idea to know who is in your country."
Of course.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 23/12/2016 16:34

Um it will be right wing policy if the left don't feel a need to protect the people they are elected to protect.

I don't see closing borders as a bad thing, the worst that can happen. I don't see it as an extreme reaction.

This man - the Berlin attacker was a criminal, he fled Tunisia as a criminal and got to Italy claiming asylum as a child ( from what? prison in Tunisa) then hung around the EU causing violence and trouble.

SouthallGirl · 23/12/2016 16:36

"How on earth is it - a right wing policy to keep people safe?"

It isn't but of course the whole "control of our borders" thing is a very right wing policy and events like this are opportunistically used to promote these views.

If control of borders is Right wing, then removal of them is Left wing - which makes sense if you look at who the founders of the EU were.

SouthallGirl · 23/12/2016 16:38

the Berlin attacker was a criminal, he fled Tunisia as a criminal

But it seems somewhere along the line he became a terrorist, otherwise why shout God is Great before firing his weapon.

DarthPlagueis · 23/12/2016 16:38

Indeed he was a criminal, but that indicates a willingness not to follow the law, so you can't say that closed borders would have stopped him.

Moderate Islam has been saying not in my name about terrorism for ever, there is even a website:

isisnotinmyname.com

Just because the media doesn't cover it well, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 23/12/2016 16:40

He was radicalised he spent time with known extremist, may have lived with him

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 23/12/2016 16:42

its a really odd argument to predict how he may have moved over borders with proper checks. Darth do you think borders have any function at all then?

I think make things as hard as possible for such people not as easy as possible?

SouthallGirl · 23/12/2016 16:42

Indeed he was a criminal, but that indicates a willingness not to follow the law

You are minimising what he did with the truck. Regular criminals do not do this. They rob banks, steal cars, burgle houses, hijack Securicor, etc.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 23/12/2016 16:42

did you miss this condemnation a year ago Tulips? or this one after Brussels or this after Nice

Don't go getting all Islamaphobic on us will you? Islamic extremists do not represent the vast majority of Muslims, that hardly needs to be stated Im sure.

SouthallGirl · 23/12/2016 16:46

Islamic extremists do not represent the vast majority of Muslims, that hardly needs to be stated Im sure

Then why state it? How odd.

TulipsInAJug · 23/12/2016 16:52

Kitten, thank you for those links. I had not seen any of those reports, despite reading and listening to a wide range of media every day.

I note that Sara Khan was quoted as a main source for one of the articles; we need to hear more from Muslims like her.

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