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Original poster

Breaking : possible terror attack in Berlin

774 replies

MagicMary1 · 19/12/2016 19:41

twitter.com/ap/status/810931083944534016

This is so sad.

OP posts:
sportinguista · 20/12/2016 10:28

That is a good point 1DAD, quality is better than quantity and of course the knowledge that can neutralise threats too. I don't think most people realise the limitations and properties of certain weapons in terms of accuracy.

HilarySquilary · 20/12/2016 10:36

OhYouBadBadKitten the article linked to at 9:35 am is EU propaganda

1DAD2KIDS · 20/12/2016 10:43

Ture. But what is more important is the limitations and accuracy of the user and their ability to litterally make life and death decisions in a split second. Armed police are trained to a really high standard and a great cost. This would not be practical to put every officer. The police have neither the time, resorces, manpower, facillities or budget to train ever officer to this standard. Plus they are selected and some fail. So that tell me that not all officers are suitable to carry arms. I would not like to see armed officers trained to a lessor standard and a more causalised approached to weapons as in most countries. This is think would endanger the public more than it protects them.

So yes to more specialist teams but no to arming every officer

sportinguista · 20/12/2016 10:48

Yes, very true, not everyone has the natural aptitude for it, something which means those who train as snipers do tend to be the elite within the armed forces. The decision making is crucial as you would have to make split second decisions.

I do think though going forward we will have to train more officers to that high standard, to ensure public safety, the money, time etc may have to be found.

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 10:59

1DAD, really interesting posts. Agree with you more specialist teams not every officer armed is the way forward.

Also IIRC, when Jean Charles De Mendez was shot the firearms squad had access to a level of intelligence that a normal bobby would not have. They were searching databases to try and establish his identity to confirm he wasn't a terrorist. Okay, it didn't work in that case, but at least there was a chance. So much happens behind the scenes, it's not as simple as point and shoot.

LittleLionMansMummy · 20/12/2016 11:07

Totally agree that intelligence is the best way of saving lives.

But to throw another consideration in, I doubt those responsible for the Charlie Hebdo attack would have been able to roam the UK for two days before being caught, due mainly to the proliferation of cctv, ANPR etc here. While I'm not saying an attack will never happen here, I do think we are much better prepared to respond to threats.

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 20/12/2016 11:11

Shout out to my fellow German residents. Flowers Brew Cake
Am now off to my Xmas market for Glühwein Wine. Have a friend on the stalls. Freezes her ass off every day. Damned if Berlin is going to put me off going. Besides which, they have been controlling the Autobahn this morning.
Oh and we have armed police (said hello to one last week as he was questioning why a lorry was unloading where it was). Berlin police are making a statement soon I think.

sportinguista · 20/12/2016 11:11

So one of the ways of collecting intelligence is knowing who is who. Who they really are, their past etc. If identity can be fluid and hidden then it's hard to know what people's intentions are.

The proof of the pudding will be how our responses are if something does happen.

TulipsInAJug · 20/12/2016 11:12

Agree with Gardengeek and Rale

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 11:19

I doubt those responsible for the Charlie Hebdo attack would have been able to roam the UK for two days before being caught, due mainly to the proliferation of cctv, ANPR etc here

It took a week for us to arrest the failed 21/7 attackers in 2005.

Which gave me my favourite ever bit of footage

'I'm not putting my hands up, I know my rights'

'Hands up, or we'll shoot to kill'

'Oh. Okay' (Puts hands up).

OhYouBadBadKitten · 20/12/2016 11:22

interesting how we each find in the article what we are looking for :)

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 11:25

Um. No kitten, I think you'll find it's fairly normal that people blindly accept something when it's saying something they want to hear and don't bother to join the fairly obvious dots which show it's unreliable.

loobyloo1234 · 20/12/2016 11:32

Couldn't agree with you more 1DAD

The police we have in ARV's are highly trained. It takes a long while to get to that level. To arm every police officer with a gun would take far too long, be far too expensive and would not have the desired effect. A whole world of pain in fact in my opinion.

Intelligence is key

sportinguista · 20/12/2016 11:36

We also apparently missed the Brussels terrorists taking a jolly over here too to pick up 3k in funding...

So not perfect, we could improve.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 20/12/2016 11:37

So one of the ways of collecting intelligence is knowing who is who. Who they really are, their past etc. If identity can be fluid and hidden then it's hard to know what people's intentions are

German intelligence and police have already highlighted they don't have the faintest idea of who is in the country, or where they are, people come in, may or may not get processed - and then dissapear.

I also think its important to point out this man so far seems NOT to have been a refugee from Syria at all but from Pakistan.

On ITV this morning they were confusing Syrian refugees with migrants from all over - which is a big massive issue! No wonder everyone is confused about it all Confused

I feel sorry for the EU in many ways - because FOM is a noble idea, there is no denying that. But its come at the wrong time in history, and enabled crime, criminals, people trafficking, gun running and an ISIS terrorists dream.
No day of the Jackal - disguises - hiding guns, plots and plans, you can go where you want and do what you like.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 20/12/2016 11:37

^^ Yes we did miss the Belgium terrorists in uk .

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 11:48

Elf, I don't think that it's the TV shows that are responsible for him being mixed up with Syrian asylum seekers...

Reporting currently is that he entered the country on NY day 2015 as an asylum seeker under a false identity. It's Merkel's 'Come one, come all, we won't even bother checking' policy which mixed him up with Syrian asylum seekers. Not poor reporting. And what knock on effect this will have on genuine asylum seekers from Syria...who knows?

Bluebolt · 20/12/2016 11:53

Success and failure of intelligence is knowing when to react and knowing when to observe. It is possible that arrests are delayed to gain more intelligence. What and why would the Belgium terrorists have been arrested in Britain for?

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 11:57

Because they were collecting the money that funded the attack in Belgium. And they obviously weren't just 'sitting back waiting for the right moment'. Because the attack succeeded.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 20/12/2016 11:59

Elf, I don't think that it's the TV shows that are responsible for him being mixed up with Syrian asylum seekers...

No I mean light weight shows - conflate the two issues and this morning called him a refugee and confusing the issue. Yes he may have entered the country under false pretenses as a refugee - we know the terrorists do this, but he is not a Syrian refugee.

You hear it all the time on the TV, mixing up refugees and terrorists.
The massive issue is - many people from other regions have taken advantage of the Syrian situation and Merkels poor planned open armed welcome and slipped in. The actual refugees have been beside themselves at these unwelcome visitors causing more problems for them. Sad

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 20/12/2016 12:01

blue they were collecting money and scouting out the targets here. The Bull ring and other places were found on their phones.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 20/12/2016 12:01

because FOM is a noble idea

I would disagree with that. It's a practical idea, it serves business interests.

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 12:05

But by all accounts he was at least an asylum seeker if not a refugee. And I believe that we've spent the last couple of years being told that we should use the term refugee for all seeking asylum seeker because the term asylum seeker has negative connotations associated with being 'bogus'. So it's the same thing really isn't it? They're all refugees until one of them does something you don't like. Then they're suddenly migrants.

But I would disagree with you on that. Migrant would imply a legal migrant who came to work or for family reasons or other above board routes. It appears this man came via the refugee route which is why he's being described as such and not as a migrant.

BillSykesDog · 20/12/2016 12:06

I believe that the outcome of the trial last week was that they were not scouting locations but were financing it.

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO · 20/12/2016 12:12

Sorry Bill we are speaking at cross purposes here you would have to watch the news item in question but its suzzana reid and she isnt up on it all and its not worth it - it was this specific item I am talking about -
The specific mention of Pakistani man this morning in TV being the perp - then in the next breath a mention of babies dying in Aleppo.

My point is - this man is not a Syrian refugee fleeing from where babies are dying, he is A Pakistani man who is if anything an economic migrant.

Interest Bill I didnt see the trial but thought they had pics of the bull ring on their phones.