AIBU.. What exactly is feminism?

[FedUp24]

Hi ladies

What exactly is feminism?

I've always thought it is women fighting for equal rights as men, but there seems to be more to it?

Do feminists believe that all men believe they are superior to women? Are women who choose to not be feminists not really choosing? They only think they are?

I'm just a bit confused!

Would it be fair if a man took paternity leave for two years out of three, then returned to work at the same level as childless woman who had worked throughout? Of course it wouldn't and I can't see feminists being very happy about if if that happened.
We can't demand fairness then cry victim when that fairness goes against us. That's not fair.

No, that wouldn't be fair. I can't see any feminists being unhappy about it though. All I can see is you suggesting they would be and then saying that wouldn't be fair.

Coffeerun,I disagree that your and my example are the same principle.
Of course I would provide a trolly for a woman to help with lifting etc, the same as I would for a man who could not manage to lift heavy weights. I have employed people with disabilities in the past and have made adaptations to suit.
These ar physical differences.
However, I do take issue with not being allowed to question childcare etc when interviewing a woman because I cannot assume it is her responsibility, yet being sued for discrimination when the same woman decides that actually childcare is her responsibility when it suits her.
I ask again, what's it to be? Equality in the workplace or special treatment? Because I can't see how the example I have given could be construed as anything other than the latter.

If a woman decides to take a few years off work to raise the children (which a lot of women WANT to do, are not forced to

Feminism is about discussing such issues and making it easier for that decision to be shared - want / forced - that is a massive discussion point. If more men took time off and it was shared, what impact would that have much later on - when the children are at school? Countries where there is less inequality suggests that it does have an impact on the gender pay gap and promotion / work / life balance / gender expectations.

Sweden is one such example

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11525804

And Iceland

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/oct/24/iceland-best-place-to-be-women-equal-gender-maternity

"Because the pay is significant – 80% of salary up to a ceiling of £2,300 a month – and because it’s on a use-it-or-lose-it basis, 90% of Icelandic fathers take up their paternal leave. This piece of social engineering has had a profound impact on men as well as women.

Not only do women return to work after giving birth faster than before, they return to their pre-childbirth working hours faster, too. Research shows that, after taking the three months’ leave, fathers continue to be significantly more involved in childcare and do more housework. Sharing the parental responsibilities and chores from the beginning, it seems, makes a difference"

It's an issue affecting women - so it's a feminist issue.

I was warned by my HR advisor that, if the woman was militant (which she wasn't) she would have a case for indirect sex discrimination if she had to leave because her hours had changed.

The reason was that th burdon if childcare generally fell to women, and as such, she was being unfairly discriminated against by the change of hours.The man had no such option open to him

If the man had child caring responsibilities, he would be able to sue as well?

If someone on MN said that their working hours were being changed and they clashed with school pick up time, I don't think anyone would mention suing for discrimination. I think they would make a lot of suggestions around childcare - and that is an issue that mainly affects women as in general, women are responsible.

In an ideal world, both men and women would be equally responsible for childcare responsibilities. I think that's a feminist viewpoint.

cathf the Asda case, Birmingham council and historically the Dagenham car factory cases spring to mind.

Cath I don't think this would be half as much of a problem if more men shared childcare 59/50.

Tbh in your example I doubt there'd be much of a case just because the time clashed with the school run. There may be a stronger case if it made it impossible to care for her children at all.

And yes the male would also be able to sue if he had a ring responsibilities.

Feminism is the belief that women should have rights that are equal to or greater than the rights than men have.

It is not about equality between the genders as such. It is the belief that women should be involved in a continuing battle for better circumstances than they currently have. The focus tends to be on areas where women are perceived to be at a disadvantage, however their is no requirement (in their own mind) for a feminist to also seek to help areas where men are perceived to be at a disadvantage.

Unfortunately this drive for something better for women, rather than for equality, is what turns so many women and most men away from feminism. Most people would accept that the sexes should be treated equally, but this is not what feminism is really about.

It may help to compare it to a Trade Union. The TU is there to represent their members and to get them a better deal. This is a continuing drive for better pay, better conditions for their members. If the management cede to their demands, the union goes away and thinks about what else it could lobby for. The union isn't considering the effect on the employer, or even non-union workers in the same industry, except in relation to the drive for "more" for their members only.

Feminism of course has many advocates who will argue, sometimes convincingly, that women have been disadvantaged for so long that it is only right that their only target is improved rights for women, not equality. This turns many people away though. Rationally, why should the current generation of men be punished for the actions of their grandfathers and great-grandfathers (and great-great-grandfathers, and so on)?

The feminist ideology is rightly perceived as inflexible. Whether this inflexibility is justified is a matter for debate, but there is no compromise on the key principle: better rights for women, which are equal or superior to those enjoyed by men.

snatch why do you think women want more rights than men? That's not a feminism I recognise.

It is the belief that women should be involved in a continuing battle for better circumstances than they currently have. The focus tends to be on areas where women are perceived to be at a disadvantage, however their is no requirement (in their own mind) for a feminist to also seek to help areas where men are perceived to be at a disadvantage

Gay groups fight for better circumstances than they have. Should they fight for straight people as well?
Disabled groups do the same. As do trans groups. BME groups.
Women fight for better circumstances. That's reasonable, isn't it?

I am sure men who are disadvantaged can fight for themselves, can't they?

What "better" rights do you see feminism as wanting fo women?

I'm loving this influx of posters telling us all what "feminists" do. snatched who perceives the feminist ideology as inflexible? And who says feminists want more rights than men?
Anyone can make shit up prefaced with "some might say"..... You need to back this up with some kind of facts

better rights for women, which are equal or superior to those enjoyed by men

You seem to be confusing fighting for better circumstances with fighting for 'better rights for women' that are superior to men?

I think there is nothing wrong with challenging circumstances and attitudes towards groups that experience discrimination and uneven playing field. Do you?

snatch

Challenging attitudes of boys towards girls in schools?
Challenging attitudes towards girls that put girls of STEM subjects
Challenging the assumption that it's girls and mothers who will be the primary carer.
Challenging the fact that many NRPs don't pay maintenance
Challenging the depiction of women in the media
Challenging the objectification of women
Challenging the fact that childcare falls mainly to women so working to make men have the opportunity to access it.

No rights there. Just challenging attitudes.

That's feminism.

amispartacus

I am sure men who are disadvantaged can fight for themselves, can't they?

And be labelled an MRA for their troubles.

"And be labelled an MRA for their troubles."

Well, if by "fighting for their rights" they mean "taking women's rights away from them" then yes.

If it means working towards ways of doing shared child care so that they get 50/50 in case of a break up, or campaigning for slhelters for male victims of domestic violence, or setting up help lines and counseling services for men with mental health issues then no.

And be labelled an MRA for their troubles

You don't often see men coming on the feminist chat boards discussing shared child care, maintenance payments, paternity leave, issues over part time work etc.

The feminism chat board is not really an appropriate place to discuss male suicide issues, male mental health etc.

SpeakNoWords, all of those cases were where women argued that their job was equivalent to a job carried out by a man.
People make frequent reference to women being paid less for doing the SAME job, which just isn't true. That's why I said all things being equal I do not believe that true wage discrimination exists. Contesting a woman's particular job is of equal value to a man's particular but different job is not the same thing.

AmISparticus - that's my point really. If a man had child-caring responsibilities and could also theoretically sue, how can it be psooibly be sex discrimination, as it could impact on either sex? If we are saying that childcare responsibilities should not fall mainly on women - which is correct - why can women then claim discrimination as they are the main carers? You can't have it both ways.

If a man had child-caring responsibilities and could also theoretically sue, how can it be psooibly be sex discrimination, as it could impact on either sex

What were you told by HR? I don't see how it could be sex discrimination. I am not sure if anyone has a case against their employers if the hours change and they can't do the hours because of childcare issues. I am sure some legal experts could say that.

That's why I said all things being equal I do not believe that true wage discrimination exists

So if employees were forced to reveal the actual wages of their staff at the same grade and level of experience (in public and private), you don't think you'd see any difference?

Yeah I thought you wouldn't accept those as valid examples. So no true wage discrimination exists because you personally don't know of any examples where those doing exactly the same job get paid differently. You don't care about any inequality in pay for other reasons as you think that's fair enough.

I think we would see a difference is wages across the board, with some men being paid more than women and some women being paid more than men. I'm sorry, I think it;s a complete - and convenient - fallacy to claim that women are consistantly paid less than men for doing the same job. Some women may be paid less than some men, but equally, I know of some women who are paid more than some men. I know I was in my last job.

To be honest, I thought the same as you about the sex discrimination claim, but it's what I was advised at the time by the HR specialists I outsourced my HR management to. I was told that the woman would have to be particularly militant, but I was warned that solicitors would probably take the case on, as there was case law where women had won sex discrimination cases based on similar circumstances.

We need an employment lawyer. Would it really be discrimination?

I am 'lucky' in that I've never had to negotiate my salary. Public sector and all that. But there is evidence (links are available) that women (in general) find it harder to negotiate a salary increase and decent payrises in comparison to men (in general).

There is also evidence of the father benefit - where fathers get more pay rises etc and more promotion opportunities - is that because they work full time, want to earn more for the family so get more ambitious - or is it their bosses know they are a father and reward them to support their family? Or both?

There's so much going on with pay rises, promotions etc. It is far more complex than simple soundbites but there is a real issue - and the 'mummy' penalty is real. As many people on MN know.

Rather than dismissing it because some people haven't experienced it, it can be worth listening to the experience (and all the studies) of people who have. Individual experiences are not proof but a lot of individual experiences should not be dismissed.

I'm sorry, I think it;s a complete - and convenient - fallacy to claim that women are consistantly paid less than men for doing the same job. Some women may be paid less than some men, but equally, I know of some women who are paid more than some men. I know I was in my last job

Plenty of evidence is out there though. Why are you keen (as a woman) to dismiss the evidence and the issues?

Interesting though, that if it is classed as unlawful discrimination, a woman is being described as "particularly militant" for wanting to claim her rights under the law..........

Often women who are successful in an equal pay complaint receive out of court settlement on condition they don't discuss the case. So it's not easy to find examples of unequal pay for the same job but they do happen.
I guess the claims that are reported are ones that go to court to examine whether two different jobs should receive equivalent pay.