AIBU.. What exactly is feminism?

[FedUp24]

Hi ladies

What exactly is feminism?

I've always thought it is women fighting for equal rights as men, but there seems to be more to it?

Do feminists believe that all men believe they are superior to women? Are women who choose to not be feminists not really choosing? They only think they are?

I'm just a bit confused!

Going to politics? That'll be new and interesting for you after being on the Trump threads..........

So you're not going to actually provide any arguments then?

How to derail and arguement using education aka " If You Won’t Educate Me How Can I Learn? "

Whilst seemingly simple on the surface, there is some intertwining subtext embedded within this one.

First of all, you’re placing responsibility for your education back onto the marginalized person. As they are obviously engaged with these issues, and care about them, they are hopeful that privileged people may one day start listening and taking on board what they have to say. By placing responsibility to educate in their hands, you tug at this yearning.

You may even successfully make many question themselves and their selfish expectations that you utilize the hundreds upon hundreds of resources on the subject available to you as a privileged person! After all, anyone who expects you to be able to research a topic by yourself also clearly expects you to be far more of a functioning adult than you’re acting!

By insisting you can only learn if they right then and there sacrifice further hours of time going over the same ground they have so often in the past, you may also make them give up and go away altogether, enabling you to win by default.

But further, you give the impression that you really want to learn, but they’re holding you back! That’s right, using this tactic you can suggest that full understanding is what you crave – you want to be a better, more connected and compassionate person – but it’s not your fault! Nobody ever gave you the education!

And now that someone is here who is so obviously qualified, they’re denying you your privilege given right to have everything you want handed to you on a platter!

Which brings us to another key component of this argument – it is very important, in conversations with Marginalized people to constantly remind them that you are, indeed, privileged. By demonstrating your belief that marginalized people should immediately gratify your every whim, you remind them of their place in society.

After all, they’re not there to live lives free of discrimination and in happy, independent and fulfilling ways! Please! marginalized people exist for your curiosity and to make you generally feel better about your place in society and don’t let them forget it!

From here. www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-education/

I'm just always mindful of the number of lurkers on mumsnet, so am happy to repeat myself ad infinitum.

Datun this is why I bang on about feminists in the middle east. If just one lurker can stop and think to themselves 'hey ya know what? Fuck people who are offended by the colour pink and Mr Men books, I'm gonna send money to charity to help children of these women fighting their oppressors' then I consider that a victory

Unfortunately some feminists are happy to silence me and by extension silence the accomplishments of middle eastern feminists

No one is silencing you! In fact, you've been asked lots of questions as people want to know what you have to say about things.

"Unfortunately some feminists are happy to silence me and by extension silence the accomplishments of middle eastern feminists"

Silence you? Blimey- for a strong independent woman you're pretty easy to silence! Might I suggest you try feminism?

Fuck people who are offended by the colour pink and Mr Men books, I'm gonna send money to charity to help children of these women fighting their oppressors

Do you think it isn't possible to do both?

I seem to do better than you Bert :)

Bobkin sure you can do both. But I'd say some issues take priority

Can you explain how you feel silenced by those talking to you on this thread?

Look up thread speaks. The page before this to be exact where it's implied I'm here to be nasty to feminists

Seems like an attempt to get me banned

"The page before this to be exact where it's implied I'm here to be nasty to feminists "

Why are you here? Not to have any sort of interesting and open discussion, obviously......

Missi

I don't think disagreeing with someone equates to silencing them. This thread has run and run, almost exclusively on the basis that you're not silent. Disagreement often breeds a deeper understanding.

I don't agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I can see you are passionate and I am glad that opposing views get aired.

Er no if I was trying to get you banned I'd have reported you.

You can say what you like. I've no interest in silencing you.

I don't really understand the logic 'women have it better here in the UK than in the Middle East so should stfu.

It's perfectly possible to care about several issues at one time.

Personally I do criticise rap music. Much of it is sexist, homophobic shite.

Why try to dumb things down to 'women getting offended about pink shit', when it's nowhere near as simple as that.

Because there are people literally starving to death in other countries, does that men I can not care about homelessness or poverty in this country?

My ds has just done a "speaking and listening" exam about sexism and racism in rap and hip hop, and is already planning his EPQ in the same subject.

I presume that he will get an F because political correctness.

Nope, because you can't hold two disparate ideas in your head at once. Silly you.

missswatch

Here's a thought. Why not go to the feminism chat page and start a thread raising awareness of women's issues in the Middle East?

It's important. You obviously seem well informed on it.

Some feminists there might still be concerned over the little things like the constant pink and blue, gender labelling, promotion of gendered behaviour and expectations, how Western society sees women, how women are viewed and treated in the media, how women do in schools, childcare issues etc etc.

I agree with the PP who stated that feminists seems stuck in a 'victim' groove and want equality when it suits them and special treatmnent when it doesn't.
Here's an example. I employed two people from 9.30-2.30, so basically school hours. One man and one woman.
As the needs of the business changed, we needed to change the starting time to 8.30, so went through the process of communication, changing contracts etc.
I was warned by my HR advisor that, if the woman was militant (which she wasn't) she would have a case for indirect sex discrimination if she had to leave because her hours had changed.
The reason was that th burdon if childcare generally fell to women, and as such, she was being unfairly discriminated against by the change of hours.
The man had no such option open to him.
So, what's it to be? Do we want equality, so men and women are treated equally in the workplace or do we want special treatment for women?
I have had several jobs over the years, and I have been paid more than men for doing the same job and less than men. I have also been paid more than other women and less than other women. Some men are paid more than others.Just because Person A is a man and Person B is a woman does not make it sexist. Unfair yes, sexist, not necessarily.
There is a huge industry whose very existance depends of promoting the idea that sexism is still a massive problem in the UK. It is not in its interest to admit that things are a lot better these days than they were only a few years ago, so the bandwagon rolls on.
The amount of times I see things on TV and think if that was the other way round, there would be an outcry about sexism - a lot of TV ads and comedy programmes for a start.

A huge part of the confusion is the way in which feminism has developed. Like most things you'll understand it better if you understand it's history. Look at the Stanford encyclopaedia of philosophy for a good, peer reviewed article on the subject.

Additionally it gets confusing because of something called "post-structuralism" which was an idea developed by a thinker called Foucault. The idea was that cultural structures are a product of thoughts, and thoughts a product of language, and language is "controlled" by "the elite".

This dialogue/argument is pervasive in many different theories- education these days, often Marxist theories, trans gender seems to be the latest to pick this up. Feminism has adopted this theory in relation to the concept of the patriarchy.

Without analysing in detail Foucault's theory, it helps a little toward explaining some of the complexities (men control language, language controls thought, thought control social structures therefore men control social structures which oppress women - the patriarchy)

HTH

So, in the UK, the gender pay gap is a total fabrication, and women and men are expected and do equal amounts of childcare? Any disagreement, and you're playing at being a victim to get special treatment.

Have I walked into some kind of AIBU groundhog day??!

Cathf it would be indirect discrimination because childcare DOES fall to women in the vast majority of cases.

Equality isn't about treating everyone exactly the same, it's about giving everyone the same opportunities.

For example if there was a job lifting heavy objects, a man could easily lift the objects, being physically stronger. A woman would need a piece of equipment such as a trolley to help her to move the objects. Should the employer decline to provide her with the trolley?

What if the job initially didn't involve lifting heavy objects, then the business needs changed. Would you decline her the trolley to help her to do her job?

Swap woman for wheelchair user.

Speaknowords, well, yes.
I am not aware of any reports that show women are routinely paid less for doing the same job, all things being equal. If such a report exists, please do point me to it. If a woman decides to take a few years off work to raise the children (which a lot of women WANT to do, are not forced to), they can hardly expect to step on the ladder at exactly the same point as someone - man or women - who has worked throughout, can they? Surely that's not a fair expectation?
Would it be fair if a man took paternity leave for two years out of three, then returned to work at the same level as childless woman who had worked throughout? Of course it wouldn't and I can't see feminists being very happy about if if that happened.
We can't demand fairness then cry victim when that fairness goes against us. That's not fair.