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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
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SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 18:21

girl can you answer why the U.K. has such a different rate of girls taking CS at uni compared to those other countries that I mentioned?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 18:23

How would I know the answer to that speak what I can absolutely tell you though is that those countries are far more patriarchal than the UK though. So if it is sexist attitudes - how do you explain it ?

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 18:28

Perhaps its because different societies are differently sexist. Programming is a nice clean indoor job requiring attention to detail, planning... maybe not manly enough in a more male dominated society?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 18:31

Dragon

^'Smart phones and all the apps'? Easier programming languages? Computers used for things of no interest to women? hmm Did you mean to be so patronizing?

Ehm - no.

The main applications of computer technology when i was younger were military - is this an area you would have traditionally said was not male dominated ? Would you expect that girls were desperate to start building military hardware ? Programming languages are easier, this does not just help women it helps everyone. You try so hard to see sexism and rudeness in every post.

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:31

Starting at school, there's a perception that science (especially physics and chemistry) is not for women. Often linked to the attitude of male teachers who don't see girls as belonging in those subjects.

Same at Uni. Evidence out there that women don't see themselves as physics / chemists. On courses which are mainly male and that can be an issue of belonging. Men tend to collaborate in learning. Women can have fewer people to collaborate with.

Finding mentors who see women as belonging there. Evidence that male mentors can be more sexist and not as favourable towards women - esp when it comes to funding, promotions etc.

Work life balance. Science is hard to plan ahead for and funding can be an issue. It also can be a career that demands late nights, unusual hours, conferences away - difficult for a work life balance.

Conferences and being taken 'seriously' as a woman scientist. Evidence that women are taken less seriously in STEM subjects.

Things are changing. But there is plenty of evidence and testimonies out there (and on MN as well) that there are barriers. Similar barriers that other people who are not white and male probably face as well.

I'm glad you haven't found any barriers. But there is plenty of evidence out there that women do experience barriers.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 18:32

Dragon

Or perhaps it isn't really due to sexism at all ? Would you consider that ? Or have you dismissed that ?

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:33

it's just that they didn't conclude "PATRIARCHY!!!!" the same as you predictably have

Do you even know what patriarchy means?

You alluded to it yourself upthread - men don't want to work in industries like nursing and carework. That's patriarchy in action.

You are a person subject to the patriarchy. Personally I call it the system.

SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 18:34

It's not a question of simplistic "sexist attitudes". You seem to think that I believe that women are held back deliberately by nasty sexist men who don't want women to be in those positions. That's far too simplistic a viewpoint. In societies where CS (and STEM generally) is viewed as an acceptable or even desirable career for women (for whatever reason, even if the reasons are themselves sexist like the idea of a "clean" and safe job), then unsurprisingly women take up those careers in numbers that demonstrate women generally are capable and capable of being interested in CS. The barriers to women in STEM in the U.K. are no longer the kind of hard obvious barriers to do with overt sexism. They are the legacy of this, the covert and subtle kind that adds up to a society that still gives off strong messages that women aren't suitable for or shouldn't be interested in CS. There's unconscious bias, lack of visibility, and a whole heap of expectations of what girls are like that happen from birth.

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:35

girl

One of the reasons that women don't want to work in the IT industry is the perception it's full of sexist men.

You have to wonder how people get that perception?

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 18:39

The main applications of computer technology when i was younger were military

That was one of the areas, but others such as finance and science have also always been up there. And I've no reason to suppose there aren't women who are interested in military applications, not an area I know about though.

Apologies if I misinterpreted the point of some of your remarks, but following on from 'computers were not used in a way that is of interest to girls. ', I'm not sure I can be blamed for seeing sexism!Grin

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 18:43

Or perhaps it isn't really due to sexism at all ? Would you consider that ? Or have you dismissed that ?

I'd consider it if someone came up with a better theory and some evidence. I don't think I've seen either.

BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 18:45

amispartacus
Starting at school, there's a perception that science (especially physics and chemistry) is not for women. Often linked to the attitude of male teachers who don't see girls as belonging in those subjects.

Presumably, up thread, you where only talking about female teachers wanting everyone to do well?

The truth is much simpler, there are very few schools that teach comp science in a competent way, mainly due to lack of specialist teachers, a badly taught subject puts all children off. Those that are left are the ones that already have an interest and are prepared to do teach themselves. (both male and female).

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:47

One of my favourite physicists is Katie Mack. She talks about sexism in science a lot. It's real.

plus.google.com/+KatieMack/posts/D61vYhvd9SG

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:49

The truth is much simpler, there are very few schools that teach comp science in a competent way

It's NOT JUST computer science. I clearly said PHYSICS and chemistry,

www.theguardian.com/education/2012/dec/30/why-dont-girls-study-physics

DeviTheGaelet · 23/12/2016 18:51

bumbley you directed the q to me actually
Devi, do you think it's possible that a highly career driven woman in law/accounting etc may decide that they want to step back a bit from the longer days when they have babies? I can think of several women in my circle of friends who have. It's not that their ambition has faded - they just prioritise different things. .How does coding become less valuable when women do it?
No skin off my nose if you aren't interested in reading the link though. It's a post-truth world after all.

SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 18:52

So, regarding just CS boney, why is it that more boys are interested and prepared to teach themselves?

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:53

More on schools

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/revealed-eight-ways-sexism-taking-place-schools

The report, Opening Doors, says that in some cases secondary school pupils were deterred from choosing subjects traditionally associated with the opposite gender because they feared homophobic bullying.

It outlines a series of gender stereotyping issues in schools, including:

Timetabling constraints inadvertently reinforcing gender stereotypes. “Subjects were often offered in blocks, and these were usually constructed in a way that reinforced gender stereotypes. 

While most schools tried to accommodate students who wanted to make choices outside that structure, there was a strong message about the types of courses that are taken by boys and girls.”

Many schools gave “little consideration” to gender representation in school displays. “It was common for them to display gender bias and reinforce gender prejudices.”

Setting by academic ability often resulted in male-dominated lower sets, which could result in an increase in poor behaviour.

Schools used alternate “boy-girl” seating, which was “effectively using the girls as buffers to keep the boys apart". The report says that girls "noticed and resented this policy".

Staff had observed casual sexism in class, such as cat-calling, sexist jokes and derogatory language. Often senior leaders would assert that there was no problem with sexist language at their school but students would report it as an “everyday reality”. In extreme cases this language “verged on bullying”.

Very few teachers had received diversity training.

A large number of pupils, both male and female, reported living with a daily barrage of sexist “banter”. These pupils "were aware that some of their behaviours and subject choices are heavily gendered, and often driven by peer pressure". 

“Girls and boys routinely felt that bad behaviour is tolerated more for girls than for boys, whereas for violations of the dress code it is the other way around.
BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 18:54

ami

still a shortage subject, still the same problem, and you've dodged the question about male and female teachers.

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:56

still a shortage subject, still the same problem, and you've dodged the question about male and female teachers

I've just posted loads of stuff about school sexism and why girls / boys don't do certain subjects.

Feel free to engage or don't believe it.

Is it an issue for you that children are put off doing certain subjects because they are a boy / girl? It is for me.

BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 19:08

SpeakNoWords

I have no idea why some boys come into secondary school already able to program in complex script.

When asked the parents (usually both) say that they have no idea where they get it from. (but this is of course purely anecdotal).

ami

It is a cross post, I am not sat at the keyboard constantly pressing refresh.

Is it an issue for you that children are put off doing certain subjects because they are a boy / girl? It is for me.

Yes it is, but it should also be pointed out that the report is from 10 schools.

SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 19:17

Do you have any thoughts as to why there seems to be a lot more boys than girls with this ability to be interested in CS at home?

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 19:24

Earlier I mentioned the girls' school effect. I just took a look at the leavers destinations for the 2015 sixth form of DDs and totted up STEM (including medicine related), 'arty'(inc languages) and then miscellaneous which I wasnt sure how to categorise. (Eg geog can be a science or not, management...)

Came out at 27 miscellaneous, 61 'arty'(including law, which maybe should have been misc) and 69 STEM. So much for girls not being interested in STEM when some of the barriers have been removed. The A level most taken is maths, followed I think by biology and chemistry and then history.

Anyone got similar data for a mixed sixth form?

BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 19:35

SpeakNoWords

No relevant thoughts on it. Only guesses.

SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 19:37

What are your guesses? Or theories?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 20:02

Why do you think boys like smashing stuff up and breaking stuff more than girls do ?