Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

...to feel depressed that only 7% of UK identify as Feminist?

999 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 18/12/2016 18:30

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/2016/01/we-are-a-nation-of-hidden-feminists/

7% of the population and just 9% of women in this country identify as feminist. I'm not saying that everyone should call themselves feminist, I care more about what people do, rather than the label they assign themselves. But I am Sad that the number is so low.

Given that most people believe in sexual equality, why do so many people not feel comfortable to call themselves feminist? And what (if anything) can we do about it?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/12/2016 16:16

girl

It doesnt...just popped on as i agreed with boo

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 16:18

girl - given that in other countries there isn't this level of discrepancy, to what do you attribute it then? Do you have any proof for 'girls arent interested in it' ?

The initiatives to get kids - all kids - into coding is still in its infancy, there aren't enough properly qualified teachers for one thing.

Boolovessulley · 23/12/2016 16:21

So it's not computer programming but are you seriously surprised that there are professions which are dominated by females or males when attitudes line this exist?
Ok it is better now ( I assume as I never got the opportunity to work as an air traffic controller). But this was my that long ago.
Therefore my dcs don't see examples of women on this profession and it all has an effect.

It's the drip drip effect.

My fil actually believes married men should not cook- it's wife work.

He also believes it's a mans job to drive.

Guess what his dd does all the cooking ( and cleaning ) and doesn't drive.

DeviTheGaelet · 23/12/2016 17:04

bumbley you asked earlier about what I said about women's work being valued less. Here's a link for you
www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/what-programmings-past-reveals-about-todays-gender-pay-gap/498797/

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 17:06

Before I answer that - can anyone answer why it is such a big deal, given the discrepancies in other industries ? And - do any of you have any interest yourself in programming, or know any women who do ?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 17:11

I would take all these articles with a pinch of salt - they are a regurgitation of a single piece of research. Note it describes

"which illustrate how the same job can be framed and compensated differently over time"

The job is not the same in anyway now as 50 years ago.

Is anyone of a feminist persuasion willing to countenance any explanation for girls not liking coding that "men are sexist" ?

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 17:26

And - do any of you have any interest yourself in programming, or know any women who do ?

As I mentioned upthread, I write scientific software. Coding is the easy bit Grin And yes, I know women who do likewise, both in my company and in academia - a minority but no less able than the men.

any explanation for girls not liking coding that "men are sexist" ?

think you missed out an 'other' ... that's not the explanation I'd give. I do think that a large part of it is that society is - and in the past moreso, which leaves a legacy - is sexist.

Given this, it's really hard to tell if there is any innate difference in 'liking' coding. Personally I love coding if it is for a serious purpose, I've no interest in playing at it. I've no idea whether this is in any way typical or if it was what the basis would be.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2016 17:27

sorry, I really should decide which dragon I want to be Blush

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 17:41

I think part of the problem is that coding itself was a decidely uncool activity, it wasn't just girls that didn't want to do it. I would imagine this is still the case now, which is why there is such a general shortage. The ones who did do it were a collection of fairly geeky boys who had done comptery stuff from a young age and already seemed to know it. However, it turns out they usually do not know it all after all and didn't have the skills required to be a good coder.

When i was young many of the applications of software technology were decidedly dull - radar systems, missile control systems, these industries are also of no interest to women in general, so part of the problem was that computers were not used in a way that is of interest to girls. This is still largely the case but things are changing somewhat as software becomes more prevalent, i.e. smart phones and all the apps. Programming languages are also changing so that you dont have to move heaven and earth to get the computer to print your name.

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 17:49

are also of no interest to women in general, so part of the problem was that computers were not used in a way that is of interest to girls

Go on. What ways are these then?

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 17:50

Thanks for the link Devi. I'll have to read it later - RL calls! :) I was asking Ami earlier because it seemed she was suggesting that programming is valued less today if performed by a woman compared to a man which I certainly haven't found to be the case!

BoneyBackJefferson · 23/12/2016 17:54

girlwiththeflaxenhair

More than just geeky boys.

Socially inept boys that played dungeons and dragons and got beaten up for being brainy.

These where the kids that would sit for hours manually typing in code soe that they could play games.

It has only started to become cool because of the money involved.

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 17:57

I was asking Ami earlier because it seemed she was suggesting that programming is valued less today if performed by a woman compared to a man which I certainly haven't found to be the case

Never said that. I think you might have misunderstood.

TheMortificadosDragon · 23/12/2016 18:01

'Smart phones and all the apps'? Easier programming languages? Computers used for things of no interest to women? Hmm Did you mean to be so patronizing?

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:01

And girl

You keep asking about evidence of barriers facing women in STEM.

People on here have outlined the issues. You could also Google them
lmgtfy.com/?q=women+stem+barriers

Plenty of research, evidence and testimonies out there.

Sometimes it's good to listen.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 18:03

Sorry Ami. Just looked back and it was Debi's comment I had replied to:

"There's also ample evidence that jobs lose value when they become "women's work" and gain value when they become "mens work" (coding is a great example of this)."

I agree with girl that coding has changed considerably from what it was. So I don't think it has gained value because there are more men working in it but more because it is a much bigger part of our lives now.

SpeakNoWords · 23/12/2016 18:04

I said upthread that I was interested in programming from childhood, and I have studied AI to degree and masters level. I've worked in IT since finishing uni. I like to code for fun as well as for work.

I agree with what Dragon has said about our society/culture in the U.K. giving (wrong) messages that computer science is not naturally for girls, certainly in the recent past, less so now. I think the geek culture that often goes alongside is not particularly helpful.

I think that there is a focus on IT as a productive future industry for our country and it seems daft to miss out on possible future innovators and workers by being complacent and continuing off-putting practices.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 18:04

Ami, you're the one who keeps telling us that these barriers exist. Why can't you give us a few examples?

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:07

these industries are also of no interest to women in general, so part of the problem was that computers were not used in a way that is of interest to girls. This is still largely the case

Go on, what things are of interest?

Maybe the computer industry should do a campaign like the EU did for STEM?

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:07

Ami, you're the one who keeps telling us that these barriers exist. Why can't you give us a few examples

RTFT

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:09

Or read the considerable links out there.

It's not hard to read. They go into a LOT more detail, more of the issues and much more evidence that I could.

Take the time and do the research. Much better than a single post.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 18:09

I have Ami. I asked you this question a few pages back and you still haven't answered. If you can't give any examples maybe you shouldn't keep insisting that they exist?

amispartacus · 23/12/2016 18:14

If you can't give any examples maybe you shouldn't keep insisting that they exist

I don't think you care. I could post some examples like before but you would probably ignore them.

If you were at all interested and concerned, you could do some research. Google the issues. STEM industries overwhelmingly attract men. Women in STEM careers face barriers to advancement (mentioned on this thread). Women in STEM courses find barriers.

There is plenty of research, evidence and testimonies out there. It's not hard to do research and develop your OWN thoughts rather than have me spoon feed me to you.

bumbleymummy · 23/12/2016 18:18

Why do you think I would ignore you if you answered my question?

I studied a STEM subject to PhD level and work in a STEM job and I'm wondering how I could have come this far without encountering or even being aware of these many barriers that you say exist. As I said earlier, if anything, I feel that I have benefitted from being a woman.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 23/12/2016 18:19

ami

Since you refused over 2 pages last night to answer a question I asked you 6 times and since you patronisingly suggested that despite 20+ years in the software industry, you have a better idea of me than the "barriers" women face and hence the reason they wont take part in it, I'll decline your invitation

It's not hard to do research and develop your OWN thoughts rather than have me spoon feed me to you.

Did it occur to you that people actually have their own thoughts, it's just that they didn't conclude "PATRIARCHY!!!!" the same as you predictably have.