To lol at the feminism threads....

[Hannah4banana]

Seriously are people constantly looking out for a way to be offended first world problems!

OP if you believe in equality of the sexes you are a feminist, if you believe in having bodily autonomy you are a feminist. You don't have to care about pink and blue or gendered toys to be a feminist. Some people do care about the less serious stuff, not considering that important doesn't take away your belief in sexual equality, regardless of the right and wrongs. I've seen some utter bullshit on the feminist board, it's gone so far it's come round the other way, with women criticised for fulfilling female stereotypes. It should be about choice and if my DD wants to wear pink and play with dolls then so be it. And if I want long hair and be a housewife that's fine too. We should encourage young girls to explore all career options etc but not make them feel guilty if they choose a traditionally female role.

I don't necessarily agree with the OD'ing comment either... only today I think there was an article in the papers about a woman who had posted a dramatic status on FB and left her door unlocked and proceeded to hang herself. Although nobody noticed the FB and her lodger didn't come back at the expected time so she wasn't found. Maybe there's a romanticised ideal of 'being saved from oneself'?

Although stats for male suicide are higher, I am sure the stats for self mutilation are higher in women. (Working from memory so apologies if wrong.) I think that is interesting in itself. I'm not quite sure what it says to the world at large (if honest have never previously considered it at any length but will do some reading.)

I think the argument is that what was once a movement for valid structural reform has become an indulgent bourgeois cult that is in its thinking simplistic, narrow-minded, incoherent and ideologically intransigent. Or much popular feminism is at least. I don't mean to tar it all with the same brush by any means.

Bravo Fenella 👋🏻

Still. At least the trolling grows more sophisticated and subtle daily, eh?

Mustn't grumble

User I think you're spot on re: uptake. I really question a lot of MH services as it is a tick-box exercise but what it does do is create opportunity for visibility - which is what I believe a lot of men with MH issues are missing.

I'm going through a spate of male suicides currently in my larger social circle (I'm 31... I think that's quite a common age statistically as well) and not one of them could I have perceived any foreshadowing. All appeared happy and outgoing and were popular/had girlfriends/close family etc. The only commonality was that nobody was aware of their struggles. It's desperately sad.

And I suspect women are more bitchy as a result of the society we live in - there's a level of competition and looks form a huge part of the perceived value a women has/is judged to have. Men don't have to be as "sneaky" because it's more acceptable for them to be open about what they want and how they achieve it.

Sorry to hear Troll

Re structural reform vs Bourgeois cult -

Yes and no. I often feel that we are getting bogged down by the little things when it's the larger inconsistencies that need to be dealt with. However; how do you actually tackle that? It's nigh on impossible.

1- I think people focus on what is tangible and 'doable'
2- I think some small things lead on to great ideas and understanding of the bigger issues
3- I think feminism is complicated because it can often be whitewashed so it's not infallible
4- I think some things are utter bullshit.

But i wouldn't say that I wasn't a feminist. I definitely am. But i don't accept all that's put out there. I think that's important. And discussion and debate is important. We all have a voice. That's our right.

User it is genuinely horrible. 6 in one year. (There have been others in previous years.) It is a plague. But no matter how many FB shares of samaritans numbers or guys saying 'Talk to me, I am here for you'. It is still happening.

Trying to reach these people is really important. But going forward I think that prevention is key- and in order to prevent we need to instill better mental health via fairer and less discriminatory upbringing.
The 'let toys be toys'/ 'let clothes be clothes' campaigns are relatively small on the scale of things, but if we are considering these issues at the start of our children's lives then hopefully we can bear them in mind going forward as part of an egalitarian parenting manifesto.

High hopes here.

I'm really not attacking feminism per se - honestly not. Women are sexualised and objectified and dehumanised and mistreated in our society in all sorts of ways still. I get that.

But I don't really get what feminism is for anymore? What is its aim? The suffragettes wanted to win the vote for women, and they did. But what do modern gender feminists want? They tend to aspire to nebulous abstractions like 'the end of patriarchy'? But what does that mean? How will we know when patriarchy has ended? And how, practically, is this to be achieved?

Here's an idea: patriarchy is basically an ideology of power and competition. To overcome that some form of socialist society is required in which everyone - men and women - have a stake in society so that no one feels like they have to compete with others for status. So then you think, 'how do we achieve that'? We take to the streets - we march on the the banks, the centres of international capital and the government institutions, demanding a programme of change to this sexist, racist classist society that is based on whoever has the most power.

But oh no, instead everyone goes on the internet and has arguments about baby cards and slut walks and thinks that at some indefinite point in the future this will bring down patriarchy - whatever that is.

mic drop

Couldn't have said it better.

Did you see the recent stunt by Stylist where they left work early based on western wage disparity between the genders?

I thought it was an interesting point, and it was nice to see an actual company put their money with their mouth was.

However, their live feed (showing an emptying office) was bombarded with comments from men and women saying "If you don't like it, ask for a rise." "I bet that office is much nicer to work in now that all the bitches have gone." etc etc

So the very attitudes that they were trying to highlight were being displayed on their thread. Written proof that they exist... yet it still got very little media coverage and they never mentioned the fact that their own FB was full of the very things that they were trying to speak up against.

I think that witnessing these kind of events can spur others on to inaction. It definitely brings more anger but also doubt as to their own effectiveness.

Y a w nnnn

I just noticed a couple of things, well three actually from your posts, OP.

1. You have a feminism husband who does a lot of the household so you do not have to suffer the phenomenon of working a full day and then coming home to put on the dinner for your husband.

2. You work in a male-dominated industry. When I was young there were all kinds of jobs closed off to women, I imagine your job was too. We have feminists to thank for your being able to work in that job.

3. You say re. the gender gap in wages "I hope it changes!". The thing is that none of these things have changed by people just hoping. Workers have holidays because in the past, workers got together formed unions and went on strike to obtain these benefits. In my life-time my mother got paid a third of what the man doing a lessor job beside her was getting paid. She also couldn't sign a contract, only her husband (who had immigrated) could sign a contract. Thanks to feminists these things have changed, but these are not permanent changes. As soon as we take our eyes off the ball things start going backwards. I know, because I have seen how this has happened over and over again in history.

Kind of goady to start a thread to bitch about other MNers, isn't it OP?

I don't have a dog, will never have a dog and don't have any interest in owning a dog, so I leave the dog board alone and would never start a thread about how I LOL at the dog owner threads. Ditto the religion and spirituality boards, Scotsnet, Dadsnet, SN boards, Start ups, the Tack Room.....

" many feminists seem less interested in the economic structures that oppress men and women than crap about baby cards."

Can you not see that the two are related?

The main difference between non-feminists and feminists is that the latter have the intelligence to see that the small stuff feeds into the big stuff.

Less yes because all feminists who care about baby cards are of some other intellectual others just can't fathom.

Intellectual level*

And no the irony of me making a mistake in that s thence isn't lost on me...

I find the "pink stinks" attitude rather unfeminist tbh. I don't want to see pink sparkly stuff disappear or think that green and blue are intrinsically more virtuous but want to remove the gender from the equation.

I was absolutely uber girly in some ways as a kid, loved pink, fairies, princesses but also loved some traditional boy things - trains, cars, playing football, haring around on my bike. What made a difference to me was parental attitude, that I never even questioned that I was the equal of a boy, because it just was. I work in a male dominated industry and earn quite a bit more than my DH.

OP. I didn't see you addressing your opinions on those threads.

I like being the one to write the xmas cards .......

Perhaps all the tasks some of you see as anti feminism, some of us just like doing.

In response to the OP, I don't lol at the feminist boards. They are often intelligent and informative if I find some of the discussions rather esoteric. I'm glad that they are there though. Generally I'm more interested in doing feminism than having a discussion.

You don't have to agree with the way people express a belief to agree with the principle. Especially a hugely important principle such as equality.

Check your privilege OP. You wouldn't find feminism funny if you lived in many other parts of the world as a woman. Either that or lurch back underneath your bridge with your mouldy pockets full of s!