To lol at the feminism threads....

[Hannah4banana]

Seriously are people constantly looking out for a way to be offended first world problems!

So if men just had a good cry and sought some help then they wouldn't kill themselves? There is no help for them. Mental health services have all but gone. After a 6 month waiting list you see some bullshit CBT therapist who tries to get you to have some 'positive thoughts' about your life on some sink estate where you're made to feel like unemployable, subhuman scum.

Pluto so which of my points do you have a problem with?

All of them, but you know that.

Or because they are conditioned to be more violent than women.

I thought victim blaming was anti-feminist?

the recruiting of females etc... I think that it can take a generation to see any real change in this.

I don't know - I have been working in IT for nearly two decades, and there seem to be fewer women coming through, not more.

I was at a women in tech thing earlier in the year, and some one from the BBC was saying they'd done an anonymised coding activity to try and make recruitment fairer. Apparently the numbers of women were similar to more traditional recruitment efforts, but they got more BME candidates to interview that way. So until they try new things, a lot of organisations may not be aware of how the methods they've used could be putting off particular groups if candidates, or they're getting rejected for reasons of unconcious bias.

So if men just had a good cry and sought some help then they wouldn't kill themselves?

not what I said. I was explaining the aims of the campaign.

But I agree wholeheartedly about the shitty provisions for MH services. For something where 1 in 4 people are affected the support available is shocking. Unless you have cash to go private, but as you say for most people it's a long hard pointless slog to nothing

I thought victim blaming was anti-feminist?

Try harder Pluto.

i think that's a bit simplistic user but regardless of how crap mental health services that we do have, men are accessing them far less than women.

How do you deal with an issue when you cannot reach the demographic? It's very complex but as I said stems from notions of what is perceived as masculine or feminine and what is acceptable/unacceptable for each sex.

Why is a 'feminine' trait lesser? Why should men not be able to discuss their feelings? It's some very deep set cultural ideas that need addressing.

the policewoman doesn't get stick from her colleagues but does from the public.... she's relayed incidents where she gets called out and they want to 'speak to the man in charge' even though she's the superior. Or they don't want to tell her things because she is a woman and they're embarrassed.

I've only ever experienced the exact opposite of this. A lot of people tend to prefer dealing with me than they would a man, but this could have more to do with my demeanor when working than my sex.

All of them

And why?

I thought victim blaming was anti-feminist?

Since when does being violent make you the victim?

EBearhug... definitely agree with you there.

"Men choose harder methods of suicide because they're more violent" is fucking dismal.

And doesn't address the fact that men are seriously overrepresented in suicide stats. It's not just a case of "women attempting suicide not being successful", the disparity is much greater than that.

This thread's been pretty effective at demonstrating just how firmly some people like to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that nothing's wrong, no matter how much reasoned argument is placed in front of them. But we all know whose side history will be on.

And why? Because you're wrong on every count, but you're also being a goady fucker, so I'm not going to indulge you with a response any longer.

Troll, this might seem a bit of a bold question - but is there any evidence that just talking about your feelings resolves your mental health problems? If I am poor and unemployed I can talk about it all I like but I will still be poor and unemployed - and therefore depressed.

This whole culture of therapy started with the advent of Thatcherism/Reaganism. All of a sudden accountability was passed from political and economic institutions to the individual. I've been mentally ill most of my life and have talked about until I am actually sick of my own voice - but it has done me no good whatsoever.

And doesn't address the fact that men are seriously overrepresented in suicide stats.

But why are they overrepresented? Why are men less likely to seek help for mental health issues? Why are they less likely to want to show any sign of weakness and vulnerability?

Can we please try and think deeper about why this might be instead of just assuming it's because feminists are man haters and couldn't give a shit?

It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that showing vulnerability and talking about your feelings are seen as feminine traits and men showing feminine traits = weak and bad could it now...?

To be fair pluto I don't feel like the 'victim blaming' comment was particularly relevant although I do agree with your views re: suicide prevalence.

If we look at the cultural capital that is invested in young boys and girls (caveat- there are always exceptions and things are getting a bit better nowadays); boys toys are all focused towards superheroes, masculinity, machinery etc whereas girls have world building with dolls, femininity, crafts etc

As I said there is always exceptions to the rule but it is telling that popular idols for young boys are based on their physical abilities or characteristics rather than their abilities to forge relationships. (See Lego Chima/Lego Superheroes vs Lego Friends/Lego Princesses for example)

I personally feel that boys are disadvantaged from a young age because of this and that it's possibly interrelated to our thoughts via male suicide. Would be keen to hear your viewpoint.

Because you're wrong on every count

So most judges aren't men? So the vast majority of child care isn't done by mothers?

Okay then.

The question is though Troll, why has the male suicide rate gone up? Massively.

User- there's the old addage 'A problem shared is a problem solved'

There are a lot of studies that link talking therapies with a greater understanding of how our minds work which can make things easier to work through/process. Accessing a GP can also mean access to SSRI's as well though and with less men approaching GP's this is less men benefitting from that service as well.

How successful the current MH systems are is debateable... but the consequences for those who suffer in silence with no support are worse than those who are open about their struggles. I would never argue that GP's hold all the answers as I don't believe that is true but it is one vital step to recognising your problem and seeking a resolve.

User, I explained my theory re: the male suicide rate above... but I would add that part of it is to do with our individualist and celebrity culture.

I think that children are told 'You can be whatever you want to be' 'The world is your oyster' 'Work hard and you can do Anything'.

However, the world is not a meritocracy (as much as we'd like it to be.) thus I would fathom that due to men not having the same cultural propensity for discussion of feelings/wants/dreams etc then they might feel like they have 'failed' and don't explore this in further depth. (Obviously some do but I'm making somewhat of a sweeping statement to make a point.)

Again, it's far more complex with lots of different strands but that's another angle on it in a nutshell.

I'm also completely that people attempting suicide via means like overdosing (done primarily by women btw) don't really want to die and are just looking for attention.

I've thought about killing myself a lot. I have a stash of various pills in my drawers just in case. Believe me if I ever decide I'm going to swallow them all it will have fuck all to do with crying for attention and it will be because I want to fucking die .

Of course I agree that communication and social contact can counter mental health difficulties. But if the causes of your distress are environmental, then they will not resolve until those core causes are addressed. An appointment with a GP, a tick list of questions about how bad you feel and a drug that purports to fix complex psycho-social problems by blocking the reuptake of one neurotransmiter will not make you feel any less worthless, unemployed, exploited, harassed or suicidal.

The kind of human contact you need should take place in a social context where you feel valued and wanted and your life has meaning.

That context simply does not exist for many people in this sick, brutal society.

I'm not any less serious about wanting to die just because I decide to swallow a load of pills rather than throw myself in front of a fucking train!

But of course you know, silly wimmin, the things they do to look for a bit of sympathy and attention and drama

I do broadly agree with your last comment Troll.

The bottom line is that you can lol all you want, you are benefiting directly from the feminists who came before you and to not see the value in feminism is quite frankly pig-ignorance.

You have the right to vote. Feminism. You have the right to own property. Feminism. You have the right to earn your own money and have your own bank account. Feminism. You have the right to work on an equal (or almost equal) footing to men. Feminism. You have the right to legal protection and recourse from rape and assault. Feminism.

To say you are 100% not a feminist when you benefit from the work, sacrifice and conviction of feminists who have fought to give you what you have now is frankly depressing. Feminism isn't just sniping over pink and blue cards, and you really should educate yourself as to what feminism actually means.

As to why women take issue with the pink/blue thing - you tell a child from infancy that they are a 'little action man' or a 'sparkly princess' and that they have to like toy guns as a boy and glittery shit as a girl, and you are starting children out on the first steps to not believing that they have equal value as men and women, and an equal footing in the world.