To lol at the feminism threads....

[Hannah4banana]

Seriously are people constantly looking out for a way to be offended first world problems!

I'm the same Pluto. I work in the emergency services. I was the only female at one point with a locker room for 15 to myself. I can honestly say ive never experienced any sexism or judgment about my gender. Maybe I'm lucky but there many females in the same position. I actually prefer working with men! No bitching or holding grudges. Shoot me now.

I read a bit about Suicide via Durkheim and I think that the representation of men is a valid point. And again that IS a feminist issue because the values that we instill in our children affect them for life.

Personally i believe that the machismo/lack of platonic physical contact that is often prevalent in bringing up males can leave them in some distress in later life which leads to the current suicide statistics. Men are also less likely to speak to a GP (which there is stats for somewhere) and so cannot access 'help' in the same way that women might.

Notions of what is 'masculine' and what is 'feminine' affect everybody.
If women weren't seen as lesser beings, then there would be no problem with a man affecting perceived feminine traits and so this (suicide) would potentially be less of an issue.

It's far more complex than that of course but

wasn't aware that women had less access to trains.

If they're a stay-at-home parent and just don't get out of the house as much without having to sort out childcare, which is still common today, but would have been even more so in the 1960s, when some jobs still had marriage bars, then yes, they would have less access to trains.

Perhaps the reason men choose more violent methods of suicide is because they genuinely want to die. Whereas the people choosing 'softer' methods are doing it as a cry for help. The fact that suicide is the biggest killer of men under 50 is shocking and shouldn't be downplayed.

Pluto so which of my points do you have a problem with?

the automatic favouring of mothers over fathers in family law/court etc.

Again skewed statistics.

The reason why courts "favour" mothers over fathers in family courts is because women are still the primary caregivers for their children in the majority of cases. It's actually got buggar all to do with favouring women over men and has everything to do with the children's needs and what is best for them.

Exactly. Plus what was the last reported outstanding child maintenance bill in the U.K. - £4billion? Or there abouts. The vast majority of those not paying for their kids are men.

Re the suicide rates - there's currently a great #BoysDoCry campaign that lots of celebs are backing in order to lift the stigma around men crying, in the hope it will slowly lead to acceptance and then MH issues will be down in men, therefore potentially leading to fewer suicides etc.

This derives from men crying being a ridiculed because it's a girly/effeminate act and men must be strong, masculine etc. How many times have people heard others tell little boys "stop crying like a girl"?

My point is that men's issues are linked to gender and feminism, it's as much in men's interest to lift gender stereotypes as it is women's!

Can I also say that my work has gone way beyond the requirements to try and recruit more females. Unfortunately it's not a job that a lot of women want to do as much as they try. I love it but it's not for everyone. They have government targets that they can't meet with regards to gender and ethnic minorities. Even after doing everything g to encourage applications.

Hannah - but why is 'bitching or holding grudges' a female trait?

I have genuinely met men who are as bad for this... yet it's women who are painted as bitchy and mean towards each other.

I don't think I believe in personality characteristics being dominated by your gender. You can be a guy and be a bitch just as you can be a female and be a bitch. But there's double standards in how it is perceived by others.

A good example for this double standards for the same behaviour would be popular opinions towards sexual behaviour. Why is a promiscuous guy not treated in the same way as a promiscuous girl? Our use of language is very biased.

But there are still too many cases where men in the same job as women get paid more, because they are treated differently when they negotiate

Yes in high-end professions like corporate finance, law and politics. And that is wrong. But the vast majority of us are equally disadvantaged. Most of us do not 'negotiate' a wage. When I was made redundant recently and had to sign on I was struck that the job centre was crammed with working-class men who could not fit into the service industry. All the mines had closed but no one wanted them as receptionists or even cleaners. They were at the bottom of the heap, regarded as oppressors on the one hand and useless trash with no benefit to the economy on the other. That's part of the reason why they kill themselves.

Do you really think men don't botch and hold grudges?

A lot of discrimination in the workplace isn't overt these days. Google 'unconscious bias'.

Perhaps the reason men choose more violent methods of suicide is because they genuinely want to die.

Or because they are conditioned to be more violent than women.

For botch, read bitch.

Thank you, phone.

Re: the wage gap thing, it is very important but I think it's also important to bring intersectional feminism into it. Women of colour are most likely to suffer from the wage gap. In America, white women earn 78 cents to the white man's dollar while black men earn only 75. Black women make only 64. I rarely see statistics or points like that on here. Oppression is more of an interconnected web than a lot of people like to think.

However in women's prisons violence is actually worse than in male ones.

Do you have links to this please?

All I'm speaking from is personal experience. Ive worked with some lovely men and women but I still prefer the guys. Sorry.

I actually prefer working with men! No bitching or holding grudges. Shoot me now.

Ugh there we go with the stereotypes. The best environments I've ever worked in by far are women only. I worked in an all male office (bar me of course) once and it was awful!

The ironic thing is is that a lot of these areas where men are disadvantaged is a result of the patriarchy and could actually be solved/helped with feminism.

Hannah re: the recruiting of females etc... I think that it can take a generation to see any real change in this. It's only really now that we're seeing STEM subjects being promoted equally between the sexes at school.

I think it might just be early days re: the armed forces. I have female members of my family in the police and army and they really enjoy their jobs but the policewoman doesn't get stick from her colleagues but does from the public.... she's relayed incidents where she gets called out and they want to 'speak to the man in charge' even though she's the superior. Or they don't want to tell her things because she is a woman and they're embarrassed.

Again, this could be seen as a generational perception but i think similar happens in a lot of workplaces.

www.economist.com/news/britain/21695956-female-prisoners-are-more-badly-behaved-male-ones-breaking-worse

Hannah its fine to prefer the company of men. Not sure what is has to do with feminism though and feminist issues? No one is saying all men are beasts and all women are paragons of virtue. What people are doing is laying facts down on the way men as a class behave vs the way women as a class behave. But you're choosing to ignore them in favour of the pettier points

In the environments where I've worked with mostly straight men I've been relentlessly hit on and sexually harassed and belittled because I was a woman, and expected to just get on with it. And yet people who haven't gone through this seem to think that their feelings are more important than mine just because they haven't experienced it. Hmm. Not having gone through something shouldn't mean that you don't make any effort to understand it.

Hmm from personal experience they are actually interested when they realise I'm a girl/lady/woman. You can't always tell what gender anyone is when wearing our uniform. I'm happy to chat and encourage others to think of it as a career choice. The government want a 50/50 split in my profession by 2020 I actually think that's impossible.

Why are men more reluctant to speak out and seek help?

Why are men less likely to show their emotions and express their vulnerability?

Why are so many men afraid to show weakness?

Think.

Thank you user an interesting read indeed (although I think it's still fit to say men are definitely more violent as a class than women)!

Interested and making chat about your role isn't the same as having implicit trust in your abilities though.

If it is difficult to tell sexes apart in your uniform then that would be a good leveller.

I don't know if they'll reach their target either, I'm not sure that I even agree with targets because it does reek of tokenism a bit but I would definitely argue that there has to be a higher representation of women in these roles.